What a closer is for

[flash10367]

I would like to thank you for putting together such a great game. Rarely these days do I complain (at least not as much as I used to - lol) but I have a bone to pick right now.

Opening day ... 2-0 lead ... ninth inning ... at home ... starter pulled after 6. I hate modern baseball and the fact that my starter from 1939 can't go nine, but I digress. What I do NOT understand is why my closer was not summoned here? Worse yet, it brought a pitcher in who absolutely got the crap kicked out of him and EVEN STILL, my closer was not brought in.

I lost 4-2 and my closer never appeared. Plain and simple, not realistic under ANY run environment.

This is only opening day but I already have no hope this season will go well.

I have since changed MY ENTIRE BULLPEN to avoid high leverage, so maybe the damned AI will use my closer correctly.

Thanks for listening. The game is still great

[Pelican]

LOL this is why I don't trust the AI to manage my team. When I do autoplay games, I try to designate roles for each RP, and make sure the closer is listed as a closer. It sounds like you were way ahead on that, and your coaching was disregarded. That simply should not happen if [1] your closer is labelled as "Closer"; [2] in your bullpen assignments he is the Closer and specifically for the ninth inning; [3] he is rested; and [4] no other RP is listed or labelled as Closer. There are also Strategy choices to use Closer. The only other variable I can think of is era. If you are playing in the 1930's with 1930's rules, closers were uncommon.

[fredbeene]

The "AI" however will manage all the teams that have the same issue you work around by playing them out. So you have an unfair advantage

Not sure if 1 game means it broke. You could try to run a report on similar situations....ooopps Ban me for bringing up reporting in a stat game.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by fredbeene

The "AI" however will manage all the teams that have the same issue you work around by playing them out. So you have an unfair advantage

Not sure if 1 game means it broke. You could try to run a report on similar situations....ooopps Ban me for bringing up reporting in a stat game.

This is exactly why I don't manage my games and let the AI do it. It seems like a huge advantage over the rest of the MLB. At least I know that the same mistakes the AI makes with my bullpen and roster are being made equally with everyone else.

Also recently I have changed the way I set up my bullpen. I now use a closer, a stopper and everyone else is a middle reliever with a secondary of either high leverage or long relief. I will also sometimes use a reliever as a specialist if they are very unbalanced between righties and lefties. But I have found the usage of a stopper a good way to use a guy who might be able to start yet has a lower stamina than you'd like. Something like between a 6-8 on the 1-20 scale. Doing it like this seems to make sure that my better bullpen pitchers get the vast majority of high leverage spots.

[Bobfather]

EXTREMELY low sample size. Play out a month and see what happens. In the settings, what do you have use of closers set for?

[md40022]

****EDIT --- sorry sorry sorry - I missed you saying it was opening day. Disregard what I said about maybe he was used the day before lol. sorry.


What was your closer's fatigue looking like? Was he tired from pitching the previous game by chance?


I manage all my games, so I can't say how effective the player strategy tweaks are, but I do believe there is a setting in the player strategy screen where you can make the computer be more willing to overlook a player's fatigue level and still use him even if he's a little tired.


I'm not even saying that's the problem. But if you do have the player's position set to "closer" and you also have his role within your pitching staff set to "closer" than the only reason I can think of where he wouldn't be used in the situation that you laid out would be if he was a little tired maybe from pitching in the previous game or two.... and if that were the case, I believe you can tweak that setting.

[Sweed]

I get the rant, I'd be wondering what happened too. We are talking about a one game sample, and yes I get it it's opening day and everyone should be fresh. I'm not trying to defend what the AI did. I will throw out a couple of variables that could have an affect, but could also mean nothing.

Handedness of the pitcher and batter's coming up, the three batter rule (if you use it), and your manager's tendencies on how he handles L/R pitching matchups. I don't spend much time looking into how this works, but I looked at my manager and two random mangers. In my game my manager is "above average" in wanting to take into account L/R pitching matchups. The second manager I looked at was "neutral", the third was "high frequency". Your manager might be worth looking at?

For clarity I play out all of my games and make all pitching decisions meaning I have no experience in seeing how my "above average" L/R pitching matchups manager makes his decisions.

[Bobfather]

Originally Posted by Sweed

I get the rant, I'd be wondering what happened too. We are talking about a one game sample, and yes I get it it's opening day and everyone should be fresh. I'm not trying to defend what the AI did. I will throw out a couple of variables that could have an affect, but could also mean nothing.

Handedness of the pitcher and batter's coming up, the three batter rule (if you use it), and your manager's tendencies on how he handles L/R pitching matchups. I don't spend much time looking into how this works, but I looked at my manager and two random mangers. In my game my manager is "above average" in wanting to take into account L/R pitching matchups. The second manager I looked at was "neutral", the third was "high frequency". Your manager might be worth looking at?

For clarity I play out all of my games and make all pitching decisions meaning I have no experience in seeing how my "above average" L/R pitching matchups manager makes his decisions.

On almost every opening day, I have found that many relievers across the league are tired, so I reset all fatigue. ST are the only games I sim.

[Dyzalot]

I think the "sample size" argument on this one is kind of funny. Are you guys telling me that your home press wouldn't question why the closer wasn't used on opening day in this situation? Would they just tell everyone not to worry because the "sample size is too small"? No. There would be speculation about injury, personality issues and the effectiveness of the manager. It would be like if your AI manager skipped your #1 starter on opening day even if he was fully rested. No one would be in here just saying "sample size".

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

I think the "sample size" argument on this one is kind of funny. Are you guys telling me that your home press wouldn't question why the closer wasn't used on opening day in this situation? Would they just tell everyone not to worry because the "sample size is too small"? No. There would be speculation about injury, personality issues and the effectiveness of the manager. It would be like if your AI manager skipped your #1 starter on opening day even if he was fully rested. No one would be in here just saying "sample size".

Yeah I think any manager would tell the press that it's just one game. The press can question it all they way, that's their job. The answer to any question after a single game would be it's just 1 game. Calm down

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by OutS|der

Yeah I think any manager would tell the press that it's just one game. The press can question it all they way, that's their job. The answer to any question after a single game would be it's just 1 game. Calm down

Opening Day is not "just one game". Could you imagine if the Red Sox didn't use Aroldis Chapman on Opening Day in the ninth in a save situation? Or could you imagine if Paul Skenes did not start for Pittsburgh on Opening Day? No manager would just say "it is just one game" because they would get blasted by fans and the press. There would be speculation about an injury or a personality issue. Opening Day is not just one game. Also note that no one is providing real world examples of this happening and it not causing a firestorm among fans and press.

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Opening Day is not "just one game". Could you imagine if the Red Sox didn't use Aroldis Chapman on Opening Day in the ninth in a save situation? Or could you imagine if Paul Skenes did not start for Pittsburgh on Opening Day? No manager would just say "it is just one game" because they would get blasted by fans and the press. There would be speculation about an injury or a personality issue. Opening Day is not just one game. Also note that no one is providing real world examples of this happening and it not causing a firestorm among fans and press.

I agree there should be speculation and even generated news stories but that doesn't mean it should never happen.

The Ai should be allowed to make stupid decisions, real people do it all the time.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by OutS|der

I agree there should be speculation and even generated news stories but that doesn't mean it should never happen.

The Ai should be allowed to make stupid decisions, real people do it all the time.

All the time? When have you ever seen this before on opening day? Not only would there be press speculation, but the player, especially if a veteran like an Aroldis Chapman, would be talking in the press about being disrespected.

Yes the AI should be allowed to make dumb mistakes. But there should be limits. You wouldn't accept the "dumb mistake" of the Angels AI manager inserting Mike Trout as the stating pitcher on opening day.

It is a problem with a lot of commenters on these forums. Rather than think through the logic and whether something should ever happen, they just take the lazy way out and say "MLB managers do dumb things too". I've never seen an MLB manager refuse to use there closer on opening day in a save situation without there being some kind of disciplinary or injury situation.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

I think the "sample size" argument on this one is kind of funny. Are you guys telling me that your home press wouldn't question why the closer wasn't used on opening day in this situation? Would they just tell everyone not to worry because the "sample size is too small"? No. There would be speculation about injury, personality issues and the effectiveness of the manager. It would be like if your AI manager skipped your #1 starter on opening day even if he was fully rested. No one would be in here just saying "sample size".

First in my post I didn't say it was "just" sample size. But the OP has just played one game. So we are working with a sample size of one.

On to the question of opening day. I don't believe OOTP is coded so the AI manager knows it's opening day. In terms of an OOTP AI manager I don't believe the game in question is any different than a game on August 1st. I could be wrong but I've never heard anything in over twenty years of playing that talked about opening day being special. I'm happy to be corrected if I am wrong abou this.

Do you think the OOTP AI manager does know?

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

All the time? When have you ever seen this before on opening day? Not only would there be press speculation, but the player, especially if a veteran like an Aroldis Chapman, would be talking in the press about being disrespected.

Yes the AI should be allowed to make dumb mistakes. But there should be limits. You wouldn't accept the "dumb mistake" of the Angels AI manager inserting Mike Trout as the stating pitcher on opening day.

It is a problem with a lot of commenters on these forums. Rather than think through the logic and whether something should ever happen, they just take the lazy way out and say "MLB managers do dumb things too". I've never seen an MLB manager refuse to use there closer on opening day in a save situation without there being some kind of disciplinary or injury situation.

The game includes many different strategy settings. This is a problem with many commenters who assume that every game is played the same way as theirs.

OP wasn't playing the default MLB game. So stop with the assumptions that this isn't realistic.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by OutS|der

The game includes many different strategy settings. This is a problem with many commenters who assume that every game is played the same way as theirs.

OP wasn't playing the default MLB game. So stop with the assumptions that this isn't realistic.

Please point out in that quoted section where I made any assumptions.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Sweed

First in my post I didn't say it was "just" sample size. But the OP has just played one game. So we are working with a sample size of one.

On to the question of opening day. I don't believe OOTP is coded so the AI manager knows it's opening day. In terms of an OOTP AI manager I don't believe the game in question is any different than a game on August 1st. I could be wrong but I've never heard anything in over twenty years of playing that talked about opening day being special. I'm happy to be corrected if I am wrong abou this.

Do you think the OOTP AI manager does know?

The label is irrelevant. The fact that it is day one of the season and there have been several days off before this game is what is really relevant. Day 1 of the season should be the one day where you can guarantee that your starting lineup will be used as you have set it up, your number one pitcher should be starting and your bullpen should be used closer to the way you have it set up than any other day of the season.

Now are there possible explanations for why this happened? Sure. Maybe the OP's Spring Training plays all the way until only two days before Opening Day. If that's the case it is possible that some of your pitchers have fatigue. But if using a default schedule in a modern game, that won't be the case.

And the "its only one game" doesn't make sense. That's like going into the playoffs after having a bye in the Wild Card games and your AI manager doesn't use the closer in the ninth in a close game. Sure it is "only one game" but it is illogical even in a single game sample after having several days off. And the blanket comments of "its only one game" or "real life managers do dumb things too" are just lazy responses with little thought put into them and as someone who has been playing this game for 20 years and been active on and off throughout that time, those flippant responses are a constant problem when someone poses an issue like the one in the OP

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

The fact that it is day one of the season and there have been several days off before this game is what is really relevant.

FWLIW, IRL at least, I'm pretty sure that's not true. Yes, I think there are usually 1 or 2 days off, sometimes even 0 (like this year for the Yankees and Giants) or maybe more, but I think you're overplaying it with "several".

That said, when I'm playing games out I find that even one off day helps my bullpen and 2 really helps.

What OOTP does in historical games, however, I don't know as I usually don't play historical. It could be that OOTP usually has several days in-between spring training and regular season or it could be 0.

We'd have to know what schedule the OP was using (it is possible to import a non-default schedule or to even edit the default) and what team he was playing as to really know whether there were days off between or not.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

The label is irrelevant. The fact that it is day one of the season and there have been several days off before this game is what is really relevant. Day 1 of the season should be the one day where you can guarantee that your starting lineup will be used as you have set it up, your number one pitcher should be starting and your bullpen should be used closer to the way you have it set up than any other day of the season.

Now are there possible explanations for why this happened? Sure. Maybe the OP's Spring Training plays all the way until only two days before Opening Day. If that's the case it is possible that some of your pitchers have fatigue. But if using a default schedule in a modern game, that won't be the case.

And the "its only one game" doesn't make sense. That's like going into the playoffs after having a bye in the Wild Card game and your AI manager doesn't use the closer in the ninth in a close game. Sure it is "only one game" but it is illogical even in a single game sample after having several days off. And the blanket comments of "its only one game" or "real life managers do dumb things too" are just lazy responses with little thought put into them and as someone who has been playing this game for 20 years and been active on and off throughout that time, those flippant responses are a constant problem when someone poses an issue like the one in the OP

I've already acknowledged everyone should be fresh.

You said "No one would be in here just saying "sample size"." My quote "I didn't say it was "just" sample size." was in response to this comment from you. This will be the second time I've said it.

Another possible explanation is the one I already proposed. Handedness and the manager's tendencies on how he handles matchups. To jump up and say the original poster's game could never happen is an overreaction.

We don't know the skills of his closer. What if he's a RHP and Ohtani and Freeman are the first two batters up in the bottom of the ninth. Now add in there is a quality LHP also in the pen? Never starts going out the window. The trouble is there isn't enough information in the original post to make a determination. All we have is... it's opening day and my closer wasn't used.

And yes, sometimes OOTP makes dumb decisions and this could be one. I already said "I get the rant, I'd be wondering what happened too.". I can admit it may be an issue. You can't seem to allow there may be circumstances where it may have been the correct call.

The OP asked the question "What I do NOT understand is why my closer was not summoned here?". He then went on to say he had totally changed his pitcher's assignments for his entire bullpen due to this one game. This could lead to unintended consequences and bigger problems than this one game. We can only speculate on what the consequences might be, but overuse and perhaps injury to his closer due to the changes he made comes to my mind. And that's just one, I can think of a lot of others.

So, I thought I'd try to be a nice guy and offer an answer to his question. An answer that didn't include "it should almost never happen" even if I believe it shouldn't. He already believes that so I'm not seeing how me saying it too is of any help? Instead I believe I have given him something to look at, though I have no idea if it will pan out or not. But it is something.

Just because someone answers a user's question about how or why an unlikely occurrence happened in their game doesn't mean they are blindly defending OOTP or the developers. It doesn't mean they aren't thinking "this probably shouldn't have happened". Sometimes they are just answering a question that was asked.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by kq76

FWLIW, IRL at least, I'm pretty sure that's not true. Yes, I think there are usually 1 or 2 days off, sometimes even 0 (like this year for the Yankees and Giants) or maybe more, but I think you're overplaying it with "several".

That said, when I'm playing games out I find that even one off day helps my bullpen and 2 really helps.

What OOTP does in historical games, however, I don't know as I usually don't play historical. It could be that OOTP usually has several days in-between spring training and regular season or it could be 0.

We'd have to know what schedule the OP was using (it is possible to import a non-default schedule or to even edit the default) and what team he was playing as to really know whether there were days off between or not.

Listen, I agree. But how many responses in this thread asked about days off or fatigue? How many just said "sample size" or "MLB managers do dumb things too"? It just seems like the responses didn't care about asking relevant questions about the OP's setup and why that might affect what happened. Instead it just seems like everyone was trying to "gaslight" the OP into thinking this is normal MLB bullpen use or at least not anything to be upset about.

Also if you are playing with a default modern MLB setup, you get several days off before Opening Day. Again, maybe the OP isn't using a default setup. Maybe the OP has some strange setting in the global settings for bullpen usage. But no one even offered these as possible explanations. Instead it was the flippant responses that I see some commenters make all the time about how this happens in real life too or your sample size isn't enough to make a judgement.

Also I'm not "overplaying it with several". If you start a standard MLB game you start on March 21st with opening day on March 25th. In my current sim, which uses the default schedules generated by OOTP, I am in 2027. My last ST game was on March 26th with Opening Day being March 30th and my team's first game on March 31st. So yes "several".