Auto Calc and Modifiers

[RunBlakeRun]

Someone mentioned the more/less offense more/less pitching options under dynamic league evolution. What exactly do those *do* relative to the modifiers and such? Just curious as I've never personally used them in either a real-world live start or something fictional.

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by kq76

Do you recall what version this changed? We should probably update the wiki.

With what I suggested, "If you really want some "natural" change, maybe enable dynamic evolution (Options screen) and its "more/less offense" and "more/less pitching" options.", how would you expect it to run when auto-calc is set? Would you expect auto-calc to override those options or would you expect them to still have a fairly noticeable impact just not as much as no auto-calc?

Are you at all surprised or concerned that in test10 the HR/AB ratio went up, not by the expected 20%, but by 45.7% when using the modifiers? It surprised me and I think it would likely surprise others who got an increase much higher than they were expecting. (And in test12 it went up by 42.2%, instead of 20% again, when also changing the modifiers.)

I plan on running more tests because I'm intrigued to find out if changing the totals is better than changing the modifiers now, but it'd be good to know what you'd expect given what you know.

Okay, I have to say it, it's frustrating that we don't document our changes better. I mean, I'm lucky, I've only been counting on auto-calc working like I expect it to the last while, but if someone else was making changes without going through testing it all, and maybe even relied on what the manual / wiki / past experience told them, they'd be getting results contrary to what they expected without maybe even realizing why. I understand, you or someone else probably mentioned the change somewhere on the boards or discord and I'm sure some people here probably saw it (I may even have, but if I did I forgot about it), but this is a change that definitely should have been documented in the manual for all the people who likely wouldn't have seen it posted in some random post. And this isn't at all to blame you specifically, for all I know Markus may have changed it several years ago, but I just feel like OOTP in general has not been great at documenting important changes. It'd just be nice to see us do better at this in the future.

/mini rant

The wiki has a little section in the stats and modifiers about the former functionality (https://wiki.ootpdevelopments.com/in...s/Stats_and_AI), which mentions OOTP 25 as when we changed to the new method.

As for the totals with the modifiers manually, I think it will vary a little also depending on what the "natural" modifier is in those runs. From the totals in the spreadsheet, the runs with auto-calc were coming in around the 5450 totals that was expected, but the totals without auto-calc were more in the 6800 range. Basically, your league that you were running there has a "natural" about 20% increase in HR over a neutral league. So when you change the modifier to 1.2, you were getting your 20% increase over those numbers. Could be a number of factors, but I would wager that when the auto-calc ran, it set the HR modifier to something like 0.8 or 0.85 in order to get the totals to match the 5450 it expected.

The totals and modifiers are confusing, but they should be a lot less confusing than they used to be. The basics are that the totals are what things are targeted for, and the modifiers are there to adjust around the totals. Auto-calc can adjust the modifiers, but it does not touch the totals. But also, if you don't run auto-calc (or keep the modifiers at their default), then the actual league results will differ from the targeted league totals depending on the actual talent and factors in the league. It could be any number of things (talent levels, strategy, park factors, DH enabled or not, etc...), so it gets confusing sometimes if the modifiers are being used to get the league level to match the league totals, or are being used to adjust the league totals away.

And I'm sure by my writing that, I'm just confusing people more now too

Originally Posted by RunBlakeRun

Someone mentioned the more/less offense more/less pitching options under dynamic league evolution. What exactly do those *do* relative to the modifiers and such? Just curious as I've never personally used them in either a real-world live start or something fictional.

They update the totals, so if you had auto-calc on, it would auto-calc to those new totals (assuming you're not in a historical year where it would just update the totals.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

The one slight change to this, the pre-calculated modifiers do not look at your league, they effectively take a neutral run using default options from that historical season to produce the output. Essentially they are there to correct for some sort of era bias in the roster set or default AI.

Whether someone prefers changing the totals or modifiers, that's a preference. As has been mentioned above, we have simplified the process so that more or less, if you added 10% to the league HR totals, that would function the same way as changing the HR modifier up by 0.1. Although the caveat with playing with the league totals is that they're all in balance - as in, if you added 500 HR to the league totals without adjusting the AB number, then you're also adjusting the league BABIP by doing that. So generally, be cautious whenever you change the totals.


The control engine function is an alternate way for the league to apply modifiers. What that function does is basically calculate everyone relative to the average player in the league, adjusts their ratings relative to that average player, and then shifts that to apply to the totals in the engine. It might technically be a little less precise than using the modifiers directly, and it's most useful when the talent levels in the league shift around and the auto-calc might not be a reliable adjustment. It tends to handle some of the extreme talent level disparities, so that you don't have like the one outlier player hitting 97 HR.



But we have put a lot of effort over the last few years to make sure that league totals try not to run out of line, so that keeping auto-calc on is not needed. Running it once manually in a fictional league (or having it on for the first season) of a league can help set the modifiers to catch any issues with the initial setup. Or if you adjust the league strategy or setting to match some other era, it can be useful to set the baseline. But after that, if you want the league to potentially ebb and flow based on the talent of players who enter and leave, then I would suggest to disable it, and then your league totals will not be as static year on year.

Have any of the issues that required turning off coaching been dealt with in terms of pre-calc? If I remember correctly, in the past, if coaching was left on, stolen bases would get way out of whack.

[RunBlakeRun]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

The wiki has a little section in the stats and modifiers about the former functionality (https://wiki.ootpdevelopments.com/in...s/Stats_and_AI), which mentions OOTP 25 as when we changed to the new method.

As for the totals with the modifiers manually, I think it will vary a little also depending on what the "natural" modifier is in those runs. From the totals in the spreadsheet, the runs with auto-calc were coming in around the 5450 totals that was expected, but the totals without auto-calc were more in the 6800 range. Basically, your league that you were running there has a "natural" about 20% increase in HR over a neutral league. So when you change the modifier to 1.2, you were getting your 20% increase over those numbers. Could be a number of factors, but I would wager that when the auto-calc ran, it set the HR modifier to something like 0.8 or 0.85 in order to get the totals to match the 5450 it expected.

The totals and modifiers are confusing, but they should be a lot less confusing than they used to be. The basics are that the totals are what things are targeted for, and the modifiers are there to adjust around the totals. Auto-calc can adjust the modifiers, but it does not touch the totals. But also, if you don't run auto-calc (or keep the modifiers at their default), then the actual league results will differ from the targeted league totals depending on the actual talent and factors in the league. It could be any number of things (talent levels, strategy, park factors, DH enabled or not, etc...), so it gets confusing sometimes if the modifiers are being used to get the league level to match the league totals, or are being used to adjust the league totals away.

And I'm sure by my writing that, I'm just confusing people more now too



They update the totals, so if you had auto-calc on, it would auto-calc to those new totals (assuming you're not in a historical year where it would just update the totals.

So it changes both the actual league totals AND the modifiers? Interesting. I may test that out once I'm further in the future of my save.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

The wiki has a little section in the stats and modifiers about the former functionality (https://wiki.ootpdevelopments.com/in...s/Stats_and_AI), which mentions OOTP 25 as when we changed to the new method.

For a second there I thought you were trying to pull a fast one on me with editing the page (and I thought, "hah! I got you", because I saved a pdf of it earlier), but I realize now that there are just two pages on the wiki titled, Stats & AI: the one you linked to and the one I linked to previously in the thread. The one I linked to doesn't mention the change. So my bad, good job on documenting the change after all. We should probably just edit the other page too.

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

As for the totals with the modifiers manually, I think it will vary a little also depending on what the "natural" modifier is in those runs. From the totals in the spreadsheet, the runs with auto-calc were coming in around the 5450 totals that was expected, but the totals without auto-calc were more in the 6800 range. Basically, your league that you were running there has a "natural" about 20% increase in HR over a neutral league. So when you change the modifier to 1.2, you were getting your 20% increase over those numbers. Could be a number of factors, but I would wager that when the auto-calc ran, it set the HR modifier to something like 0.8 or 0.85 in order to get the totals to match the 5450 it expected.

FWIW, all I was testing was a standard historical 2024 MLB league. And the only reason why I chose it was because I was a bit more familiar with it given I had just been recently testing that Athletics bug I reported that you've since reported fixing. And other than what I noted in the notes column and selecting commissioner mode (why? just out of habit, I didn't use it), I didn't do anything different with the league.

But yeah, while I appreciate the explanation of why the tests probably got the results they did, I'm not sure it's a good thing what the un-auto-calculated tests showed. I mean, maybe that's what some people would want from a default 2024 historical MLB league, maybe, but is it probably what most would want? The increased ratios I mentioned definitely surprised me. I don't know. I'd think most would want the auto-calculated, but of course that is the default so is there really anything worthy of arguing over when the defaults aren't used. Maybe, maybe not.

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

The totals and modifiers are confusing, but they should be a lot less confusing than they used to be. The basics are that the totals are what things are targeted for, and the modifiers are there to adjust around the totals. Auto-calc can adjust the modifiers, but it does not touch the totals. But also, if you don't run auto-calc (or keep the modifiers at their default), then the actual league results will differ from the targeted league totals depending on the actual talent and factors in the league. It could be any number of things (talent levels, strategy, park factors, DH enabled or not, etc...), so it gets confusing sometimes if the modifiers are being used to get the league level to match the league totals, or are being used to adjust the league totals away.

And I'm sure by my writing that, I'm just confusing people more now too

Maybe, but I definitely appreciate the more info!

[David Watts]

Too bad the person with the most experience using pre-calc has been banned.....well is there a plural form of the word banned

[Dargaaz68]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Too bad the person with the most experience using pre-calc has been banned.....well is there a plural form of the word banned

Am I missing something or just maybe haven't picked up the lingo yet. Where would I find a "pre-calc" or "re-calc" and what do they achieve? The only thing I have seen is the Auto calc so maybe I'm just missing something.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

But we have put a lot of effort over the last few years to make sure that league totals try not to run out of line, so that keeping auto-calc on is not needed. Running it once manually in a fictional league (or having it on for the first season) of a league can help set the modifiers to catch any issues with the initial setup. Or if you adjust the league strategy or setting to match some other era, it can be useful to set the baseline. But after that, if you want the league to potentially ebb and flow based on the talent of players who enter and leave, then I would suggest to disable it, and then your league totals will not be as static year on year.

I've read some posts talking about this the last couple of years, but don't recall seeing a post that ties it together like this. In the pre-autocalc years I would "tune" my league output "by hand", which worked but wasn't always fun. When autocalc was added I thought it was, and still is, one of the best additions ever added to the game. Since then I have autcalced after each season. With your post above I may just go to letting it drift and see how things shake out.

Thanks.

[locuspc]

I enjoy letting the league environment drift. After all, real life baseball drifts. I kind of wish there was an option to add random perturbation to the league modifiers to help simulate this. I know there's the league evolution for more or less offense, but that's too big and chunky and doesn't touch other things like starting pitcher innings or stolen bases.

[OutS|der]

I guess my request fell on deaf ears.....

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by locuspc

I enjoy letting the league environment drift. After all, real life baseball drifts. I kind of wish there was an option to add random perturbation to the league modifiers to help simulate this. I know there's the league evolution for more or less offense, but that's too big and chunky and doesn't touch other things like starting pitcher innings or stolen bases.

We have random debut. Why not random auto calc? Let us the user select a series of years, say 1976-1989, following each season the game would randomly pick a year in that range for the modifiers/auto calc. You can of course accomplish this with a random number generator, but it would be more fun if the game handled it for you.

[RunBlakeRun]

Originally Posted by David Watts

We have random debut. Why not random auto calc? Let us the user select a series of years, say 1976-1989, following each season the game would randomly pick a year in that range for the modifiers/auto calc. You can of course accomplish this with a random number generator, but it would be more fun if the game handled it for you.

Okay this is an AWESOME idea. Hell, I love bouncing between 1987 and 1998, so why not let it be specific individual seasons to bounce between or have it be progressive (like on a sliding scale, each season would oscillate between the totals of 1987 to 1998, so by the time 12 years have passed, you should get something resembling 1998).

But I digress, yes, please let's do this!

[luckymann]

Originally Posted by David Watts

We have random debut. Why not random auto calc? Let us the user select a series of years, say 1976-1989, following each season the game would randomly pick a year in that range for the modifiers/auto calc. You can of course accomplish this with a random number generator, but it would be more fun if the game handled it for you.

You will find that the league has real trouble keeping up with the ever-changing environment, especially if it goes straight from, say, 1915 to 1998. I doubt you'd like the results DW, and would switch it off very quickly.

G

[luckymann]

Originally Posted by Dargaaz68

Am I missing something or just maybe haven't picked up the lingo yet. Where would I find a "pre-calc" or "re-calc" and what do they achieve? The only thing I have seen is the Auto calc so maybe I'm just missing something.

Recalc is applied to players and is an option in the original setup process, then available if you have set the league up as a historical game.

Pre-calc is best explained by Matt in his long post, above, and is a setting option in the STATS & AI tab.

We could really do with some better names for all of these...

[luckymann]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Too bad the person with the most experience using pre-calc has been banned.....well is there a plural form of the word banned

Yeah, but then again, not really.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by luckymann

You will find that the league has real trouble keeping up with the ever-changing environment, especially if it goes straight from, say, 1915 to 1998. I doubt you'd like the results DW, and would switch it off very quickly.

G

Ah that's why I said the user would set the range. It would be silly to ever go from 1915 to 1998. That being said, If I used told the game to choose modifiers from 1978-1989, things would progress pretty much without a hiccup.

[Dargaaz68]

Originally Posted by luckymann

Recalc is applied to players and is an option in the original setup process, then available if you have set the league up as a historical game.

Pre-calc is best explained by Matt in his long post, above, and is a setting option in the STATS & AI tab.

We could really do with some better names for all of these...

Thanks for that, I appreciate it.

Is it advisable to also run auto calc on all of the minor league Teams?

[luckymann]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Ah that's why I said the user would set the range. It would be silly to ever go from 1915 to 1998. That being said, If I used told the game to choose modifiers from 1978-1989, things would progress pretty much without a hiccup.

Gotcha.

[Todd R]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Have any of the issues that required turning off coaching been dealt with in terms of pre-calc? If I remember correctly, in the past, if coaching was left on, stolen bases would get way out of whack.

Auto-calc is presented as a way of fine tuning the output but its actual purpose is to compensate for gross errors like the coaching issue. There are problems with some settings where development produces highly unrealistic aggregate league talent. But regardless of errors auto-calc makes such leagues perform like historical ones.


The problem is that auto-calc treats any deviation from historical - even those desired and intended by users - as errors and over rides the effect. It's a huge bandaid that covers much more than the actual wound.

[Todd R]

Originally Posted by locuspc

I enjoy letting the league environment drift. After all, real life baseball drifts. I kind of wish there was an option to add random perturbation to the league modifiers to help simulate this. I know there's the league evolution for more or less offense, but that's too big and chunky and doesn't touch other things like starting pitcher innings or stolen bases.

The ability of the league to evolve exists due to the development feature. If it could be counted on too develop plausible aggregate league talent turning auto-calc off and using pre-calc modifiers would produce the effect you want. And it would be more natural since the player talent would evolve on a path rather than vary randomly year to year.