Pete Rose sycophants

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

https://x.com/RapSheet/status/1840891519676362904

Reminder: Pete did not get a "lifetime ban". He was ruled permanently ineligible, which survives his death.

I mean, realistically the main push for him was to bring him in while he was still alive. Now that he’s not, it’s just a bunch of numbers (and the gambling, and the pedophilia)…

[zappa1]

Pete will be in, now. They just never wanted him to see it.

[chucksabr]

As long as Pete Rose is on Baseball's permanently ineligible list, the only way he will be inducted into the Hall of Fame is if the Hall were to disassociate itself from Major League Baseball altogether, and there is no "there" there in it for them to do so.

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by RchW

Thanks for the support. Of course I meant no insult. I'll quibble with your definition though. Rose could have retired after the 1979 season and been a first ballot HoFer. I don't think his case is defined by his longevity, instead his longevity did nothing for his case. Ichiro is heading in that direction too.

Oh my goodness, I have been debating this topic for a couple of decades now and reviewing this thread, this post, made me think of something that hadn't occurred to me before.

Had Pete Rose retired at any point between the end of the 1976 season and the 1983 season, he would already have been enshrined in the Hall of Fame when it was revealed in March 1989 that he gambled on games in which he had a duty to perform. And then the Hall of Fame would have had to make the decision to expel him from its ranks, which had never happened before and hasn't since.

And had Pete retired after the 1983 season itself, he would certainly have been voted into the Hall in January 1989, due to be inducted that August, and during the interim the first public allegations of his gambling on games he was involved in would have come out that March, with the Dowd Report released that June!

Can you imagine just what an entertaining ****storm that would have been!

[chucksabr]

There are a lot of reasons to not reinstate Pete Rose, and I have articulated several of them here over the years. But one that occurred to me just recently is: if it turns out Baseball refused to reinstate him while he was alive but did so only now that he’s dead, they’re basically admitting that they were interested only in punishing the man rather than punishing the infraction. That’s something small, petty, vindictive organizations do, and it was be a very, very bad look for Major League Baseball to do this.

When MLB punishes a player for any infraction, even this one, they have to separate the man from the infraction. The punishment must be equal for everyone, and should never turn on the personality of the convicted, and that goes double when there is only one prescribed punishment for it. It’s the infraction itself they have to remain focused on, irrespective of who committed it. That’s what principled organizations do, and this is yet one more reason why there is nothing in it for Baseball to reinstate Pete Rose.

[Tekneek]

By the same token, they have to continue punishing everyone the same way. If they've lost the appetite for eternal bans, then they have to address their existing bans.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

There are a lot of reasons to not reinstate Pete Rose, and I have articulated several of them here over the years. But one that occurred to me just recently is: if it turns out Baseball refused to reinstate him while he was alive but did so only now that he’s dead, they’re basically admitting that they were interested only in punishing the man rather than punishing the infraction. That’s something small, petty, vindictive organizations do, and it was be a very, very bad look for Major League Baseball to do this.

When MLB punishes a player for any infraction, even this one, they have to separate the man from the infraction. The punishment must be equal for everyone, and should never turn on the personality of the convicted, and that goes double when there is only one prescribed punishment for it. It’s the infraction itself they have to remain focused on, irrespective of who committed it. That’s what principled organizations do, and this is yet one more reason why there is nothing in it for Baseball to reinstate Pete Rose.

Good point.

Though I will say organizations posthumously pardon people often when a clear injustice had been done.

But that does not apply to Rose.

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Good point.

Though I will say organizations posthumously pardon people often when a clear injustice had been done.

But that does not apply to Rose.

Right. Pete was never truly repentant. He was only crocodile repentant. He continued to live in Vegas, gamble in Vegas, and have events in which he needled the game for their brazen attempt to maintain the anti-gambling integrity of the game.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

There are a lot of reasons to not reinstate Pete Rose, and I have articulated several of them here over the years. But one that occurred to me just recently is: if it turns out Baseball refused to reinstate him while he was alive but did so only now that he’s dead, they’re basically admitting that they were interested only in punishing the man rather than punishing the infraction. That’s something small, petty, vindictive organizations do, and it was be a very, very bad look for Major League Baseball to do this.

When MLB punishes a player for any infraction, even this one, they have to separate the man from the infraction. The punishment must be equal for everyone, and should never turn on the personality of the convicted, and that goes double when there is only one prescribed punishment for it. It’s the infraction itself they have to remain focused on, irrespective of who committed it. That’s what principled organizations do, and this is yet one more reason why there is nothing in it for Baseball to reinstate Pete Rose.

Very well said. My wife asked me about this last night and, literally, my blurted reaction was "What? They wait until after the man is dead?"

There is also a political aspect to this concerning the involvement of someone whom I detest and who has no business making any judgments in the matter, so that precludes any further commentary on my part.

[CONN CHRIS]

As always, I fully agree, Pete was a PoS. Pete is banned for life due to his lies, his actions, and his detachment from reality.

However, Pete had more hits than Ty Cobb and I want to see his plaque when I visit Cooperstown.

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

As always, I fully agree, Pete was a PoS. Pete is banned for life due to his lies, his actions, and his detachment from reality.

However, Pete had more hits than Ty Cobb and I want to see his plaque when I visit Cooperstown.

Pete Rose was not banned for life. He was declared permanently ineligible, which survives his death.

You can always go to Cooperstown and see the display honoring his hit record in the museum adjacent to the Hall of Fame.

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

Pete Rose was not banned for life. He was declared permanently ineligible, which survives his death.

You can always go to Cooperstown and see the display honoring his hit record in the museum adjacent to the Hall of Fame.

Right. I know, I know. The all-time hit king belongs in the hall of fame. So does the all-time HR king.

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

Right. I know, I know. The all-time hit king belongs in the hall of fame. So does the all-time HR king.

No, the all-time hit king does not belong in the Hall of Fame. He admitted to gambling on games in which he had a duty to perform, the penalty for which is to be declared permanently ineligible by Major League Baseball. The Hall of Fame has determined that anybody declared permanently ineligible by Major League Baseball is also ineligible for enshrinement in the Hall of Fame. Regardless of when the Hall decided this was to be the case, this is the case, and until the all-time hit king is reinstated by Major League Baseball, he does not belong in the Hall of Fame.

If you were to amend your statement to read that you want the all-time hit king to be enshrined in the Hall of Fame, you will get no argument from me.

I do agree with you that the all-time HR king belongs in the Hall of Fame, as does the all-time career leader in 20-strikeout games. Neither have been declared permanently ineligible by Major League Baseball, nor have they been declared guilty by Major League Baseball of the steroid charges that have been levied against them.

[CONN CHRIS]

It's a hall of fame not an international war tribunal. Rules can be, are, and have been bent, altered, set aside.

[Amazin69]

It's also not meant to govern the world, so the fact that Bonds and Clemens did not commit war crimes is irrelevant.

It does honor baseball players, so those who cheated at baseball should not be honored. That seems a fairly simple concept to grasp, I should think.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Amazin69

It's also not meant to govern the world, so the fact that Bonds and Clemens did not commit war crimes is irrelevant.

It does honor baseball players, so those who cheated at baseball should not be honored. That seems a fairly simple concept to grasp, I should think.

So simple.

I don't criticize people for wanting Rose & PED users in Cooperstown, Canton, Toronto whatever. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Its just the square peg justifications they try to apply to the round hole issue that perplex me.

"I want Rose in". That's a legit reason. Not a winning argument, mind you. But a legit line on the power point presentation. That, & the numbers are worthy. Folks will get no kickback from me on those 2.

It's all the other talking points that are drowning in illogic to me.

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

As long as Pete Rose is on Baseball's permanently ineligible list, the only way he will be inducted into the Hall of Fame is if the Hall were to disassociate itself from Major League Baseball altogether, and there is no "there" there in it for them to do so.

There is no association between the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, and Major League Baseball. None.

No legal or financial ties, and the HoF acts as a completely independent agency.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

Right. Pete was never truly repentant. He was only crocodile repentant. He continued to live in Vegas, gamble in Vegas, and have events in which he needled the game for their brazen attempt to maintain the anti-gambling integrity of the game.

Almost sounds like the behavior of an addict in denial.

That's not to say baseball should do something to allow Pete into the HOF. They are enforcing the rules as written. If they want to find a way to put Rose in the HOF? That too is up to them. I couldn't care less either way.

Might be nice though if we could at least acknowledge an addict may not be able control their addictive behavior. Rose may have many skeletons in his closet that make him despicable, gambling disorder isn't one of them.

[mytreds]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

So simple.

I don't criticize people for wanting Rose & PED users in Cooperstown, Canton, Toronto whatever. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Its just the square peg justifications they try to apply to the round hole issue that perplex me.

"I want Rose in". That's a legit reason. Not a winning argument, mind you. But a legit line on the power point presentation. That, & the numbers are worthy. Folks will get no kickback from me on those 2.

It's all the other talking points that are drowning in illogic to me.

Papi cheated. He’s in the HoF.

Selig knew about the cheating and allowed it to happen. He’s in the HoF too.

Its odd when people act as if the HoF is a “Good Guys Only Club”.

[Amazin69]

Once again, two wrongs don't make a right. "Lowest Common Denominator" is stupid or we'd be inducting every 3B who was a better hitter than Fred Lindstrom. (Kevin Seitzer, come on down! David Wright, first ballot! Bill Madlock, what kept you??)

And if you'd like to start a drive to get rid of Big Crapi and Selig (and Tony LaRussa, the patron of Barry "Needles" Weinberg and his Magic Syringe), feel free. Not the issue, though.