Pitching Splits

[snepp]

Anyone know of a good article or two that talks about the relationship of splits between hitters and pitchers as far as who is more responsible? I did a little bit 'o googling and didn't come up with what I was looking for.

[Garlon]

For historical games we have real splits data for hitters since 1901 and the game will use it if you select the option to use real splits for your game.

We have also compiled the splits data for historical pitchers since 1914, however, the game does not currently use that file. I am hopeful that it will eventually be incorporated into the game.

[hfield007]

Originally Posted by Garlon

For historical games we have real splits data for hitters since 1901 and the game will use it if you select the option to use real splits for your game.

We have also compiled the splits data for historical pitchers since 1914, however, the game does not currently use that file. I am hopeful that it will eventually be incorporated into the game.

that would be pretty awesome if so!!

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Garlon

For historical games we have real splits data for hitters since 1901 and the game will use it if you select the option to use real splits for your game.

We have also compiled the splits data for historical pitchers since 1914, however, the game does not currently use that file. I am hopeful that it will eventually be incorporated into the game.

Split data shows in a pitcher's editor. This implies it's being used.

So splits are part of both a batter's and a pitcher's rating, whose rating controls the PA?

[hfield007]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Split data shows in a pitcher's editor. This implies it's being used.

Not necessarily. If you go back and see my post on Miguel Batista, with 3 year recalc on he had a identical control rating for L and R despite his walk rate over that period being twice as much against the one side.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by hfield007

Not necessarily. If you go back and see my post on Miguel Batista, with 3 year recalc on he had a identical control rating for L and R despite his walk rate over that period being twice as much against the one side.

So they're showing stuff on the editor page that doesn't make it to the ratings used to calculate the results? Interesting.

[biggerme]

I am making an assumption here but i think when there are no Historical Splits statistics are not available the the game uses League ERA stat where there is coefficient availble for L/R split and game uses that which explains very small variance in created player Left versus Right Ratings
Game has statistics for Historical and Current player with Splits.
Minors dpnt have splits,
I have these stats extracted and can easily check cases for real players,
Fictionals will definitely use for splits already mentioned league totals for a that year your league is in

[Matt Arnold]

Yeah, on player creation we seem to be light in applying the splits to players. We can certainly look into that and correct it for the next update.

[jbuchanan]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Yeah, on player creation we seem to be light in applying the splits to players. We can certainly look into that and correct it for the next update.

Yay, that would be awesome!

[Garlon]

For historical s the game is really producing great results. I would advise against doing anything with how the splits are being handled. That could significantly imbalance the game. Sometimes less is more.

[Garlon]

hfield007, the scales are not linear for ratings and how they convert to performance. It is pretty obvious in historical games that LHB have a good advantage against RHP even when not using the real historical splits for batters from the file, and I certainly do not want to see that exaggerated even more because the flip side of that is going to cause RHB to perform worse. Whether or not the game is handling this differently for purely fictional players I do not know.

[hfield007]

Originally Posted by Garlon

hfield007, the scales are not linear for ratings and how they convert to performance. It is pretty obvious in historical games that LHB have a good advantage against RHP even when not using the real historical splits for batters from the file, and I certainly do not want to see that exaggerated even more because the flip side of that is going to cause RHB to perform worse. Whether or not the game is handling this differently for purely fictional players I do not know.

it makes sense as to why for historical i suppose, but it is a bit frustrating from a managerial standpoint. a 7 contact vs L as an RHB and a 7 contact vs L as an LHB should mean the same thing if facing a pitcher with splits that are the same vs R and L (obviously theres some give for the range of a 7 for the batter) otherwise it is really difficult to make a decision on whether to pinch hit or not.

There shouldn't be background calculations you need to take into account.

Unless i am misunderstanding what you are saying in terms of historical split ratings. But a 7 should mean a 7 for the batter if the pitcher you're facing has identical splits against RHB and LHB.

I have made historical leagues where i've recreated every single player by hand with splits for both pitchers and batters. obviously it cant be perfect because these are hand done and not exactly the way the game makes players, but the stats come out pretty decently for these. I am sure it is more complex from the game's perspective but it feels like it can be done to properly represent splits. but again what i feel, and reality are two different things lol.

I don't play the games historical all that much so it isn't a big focus of mine, im moreso hoping to see the changes in fictional long term which it sounds like may be addressed.

[Garlon]

Yes, perhaps there is an issue here. This may be an easy fix for them when it gets addressed. Many things were entirely rebuilt in the engine and maybe how the splits were previously handed, which was very good, just did not entirely make it into the new engine. I think they will be able to resolve this and return it to the way it was previously handled in the game.

[Brad K]

So let's say I know that LHP does 20 points lower in BA against LHB and I edit him to show this difference. Now say I have a LHB who does 20 points lower in BA against LHP and I edit him to show this difference.

What happens when it comes time to calculate his ABs? If they use the batting rating against the pitching rating the BA will be more than 20 points lower because both of these ratings are against average opposition not the opposition being faced.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by hfield007

it makes sense as to why for historical i suppose, but it is a bit frustrating from a managerial standpoint. a 7 contact vs L as an RHB and a 7 contact vs L as an LHB should mean the same thing if facing a pitcher with splits that are the same vs R and L (obviously theres some give for the range of a 7 for the batter) otherwise it is really difficult to make a decision on whether to pinch hit or not.

There shouldn't be background calculations you need to take into account.

Unless i am misunderstanding what you are saying in terms of historical split ratings. But a 7 should mean a 7 for the batter if the pitcher you're facing has identical splits against RHB and LHB.

I have made historical leagues where i've recreated every single player by hand with splits for both pitchers and batters. obviously it cant be perfect because these are hand done and not exactly the way the game makes players, but the stats come out pretty decently for these. I am sure it is more complex from the game's perspective but it feels like it can be done to properly represent splits. but again what i feel, and reality are two different things lol.

I don't play the games historical all that much so it isn't a big focus of mine, im moreso hoping to see the changes in fictional long term which it sounds like may be addressed.

No they aren’t though. Even if a batter has identical ratings vs lefties and righties, the pitcher has splits as well and so in turn, unless they’re playing someone with reverse splits (most notably pitchers who throw the circle change but also screwballers), they should have small splits in practice.

[hfield007]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

No they aren’t though. Even if a batter has identical ratings vs lefties and righties, the pitcher has splits as well and so in turn, unless they’re playing someone with reverse splits (most notably pitchers who throw the circle change but also screwballers), they should have small splits in practice.

that is understandable, but the pitchers have no splits really. or at least incredible minute splits under 10 points difference in their raw ratings. so a 7 for the batter regardless of handedness should play as a 7 assuming neutral handed park factors as well.

if we are talking a world where in the game pitcher splits exist and are more than minute differences in their ability then yes obviously that matters and that is what im saying i want to see. Pitchers to have proper splits (miguel batista having the exact same raw rating for control despite being twice as likely to give up walks against one side doesnt make sense) and batters to also have splits and then needing to make an informed decision based on both's abilities vs each side.

Currently that is not really the case from a ratings standpoint. The way it is explained It currently feels like i need to assume against a right handed pitcher who is a 6/6/6 against both LH and RH batters that my RHB with a 7 contact is less likely to get a hit than my LHB with a 7 contact in a neutral park. That just doesn't make sense to me and feels like it defeats the point of even displaying ratings.

But this is all way off topic. The original point of everything is just to see pitchers and batters in fictional games actually have any kind of splits like real life. Batters are all identical from both sides in fictional games. Sounds like it is being looked at so that is a victory.

[hfield007]

Originally Posted by Garlon

hfield007, the scales are not linear for ratings and how they convert to performance.

Is this just due to the variables of the opponents ratings you faced you mean and the parks you played within?

Or do you mean in an environment with neutral parks, every pitcher having exact identical ratings as each other vs both LHB and RHB, and every batter having identical ratings: that lefties would still perform better against righties than lefties would?

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by hfield007

that is understandable, but the pitchers have no splits really. or at least incredible minute splits under 10 points difference in their raw ratings. so a 7 for the batter regardless of handedness should play as a 7 assuming neutral handed park factors as well.

if we are talking a world where in the game pitcher splits exist and are more than minute differences in their ability then yes obviously that matters and that is what im saying i want to see. Pitchers to have proper splits (miguel batista having the exact same raw rating for control despite being twice as likely to give up walks against one side doesnt make sense) and batters to also have splits and then needing to make an informed decision based on both's abilities vs each side.

Currently that is not really the case from a ratings standpoint. The way it is explained It currently feels like i need to assume against a right handed pitcher who is a 6/6/6 against both LH and RH batters that my RHB with a 7 contact is less likely to get a hit than my LHB with a 7 contact in a neutral park. That just doesn't make sense to me and feels like it defeats the point of even displaying ratings.

But this is all way off topic. The original point of everything is just to see pitchers and batters in fictional games actually have any kind of splits like real life. Batters are all identical from both sides in fictional games. Sounds like it is being looked at so that is a victory.

You talk ratings of 6 and 7. Maybe you'd see splits if you used something other than 1-10.

[hfield007]

Originally Posted by Brad K

You talk ratings of 6 and 7. Maybe you'd see splits if you used something other than 1-10.

so i also look at hard ratings as well. there really isn't much difference in their hard ratings. it is minute, under 10 points. which is barely noticeable. in real life there are people who would rate a 5 against lefties and 8 against righties. you dont see that replicated in game. large distortions in split ability are common in real life but unheard of in the game. having used 1-10 for 17 years in ootp you kind of have a good idea what to expect from those ratings.

[kidd_05_u2]

Hfield is 100% correct in flagging this, at least for fictional players. The problem becomes apparent immediately when comparing the rating splits for the standard MLB roster set to the splits for fictional batters.