Best Version Ever??

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by kidd_05_u2

It's an engine that leaves you with a deficient player ratings system (subjective of course) and limits you to a baseball game representation where every pitcher, every batter, and every pitch will always feel almost exactly the same from one another. I'm not asking for The Show, but I honestly can't tell the difference between a 85mph fastball and a 100mph fastball, can't tell a ball from a strike most of the time, etc...

Even if you throw out the graphics part of it, you still have a boring ratings system where pitch velocity and pitch repertoire mean very little, the movement rating has absolutely nothing to do with actual movement, and on and on.

I love OOTP for what it is and I 100% agree that v25 is the best version. I just wish the developers' focus would shift from endlessly tinkering around the edges of a limited system and they instead started working toward an engine revamp that would make the game significantly better and more attractive to a broader audience. I'm aware this is not happening for a variety of reasons.

I'm sure they'll continue to work on making the pitches look prettier in future releases, yes. Don't stay up late expecting for them to change a "deficient player ratings system" because for historical players and many current players and people doing fictional GM stuff it works really well for what it does, which is simulate baseball.

[kidd_05_u2]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Don't stay up late expecting for them to change a "deficient player ratings system" because for historical players and many current players and people doing fictional GM stuff it works really well for what it does, which is simulate baseball.

I'm sure it works great for people like you who play stats only.

[locuspc]

Originally Posted by kidd_05_u2

Even if you throw out the graphics part of it, you still have a boring ratings system where pitch velocity and pitch repertoire mean very little, the movement rating has absolutely nothing to do with actual movement, and on and on.

See this part doesn't make sense to me. Pitch velocity is a huge part of pitcher stuff which leads directly to Ks. Pitch repertoire is the main determinant of how effective a pitcher will be as a starter rather than a reliver. Try a two pitch guy as a starter and tell me repertoire means very little! And there's no "actual movement", there can't be, if you want actual movement go outside. All there is is numbers in a computer, and the movement rating has plenty to do with numbers in the computer.

Movement determines the pitcher's ability to avoid hard contact. IRL, pitch movement both helps the pitcher avoid hard contact and helps him get swinging strikes, but in the game the latter is rolled into Stuff. Is this just a terminology hangup? Would you feel better about things if Movement were instead labeled "The Skill Of Avoiding Hard Contact"? That would be an easy change, maybe even something you could do yourself with a mod.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by kidd_05_u2

I'm sure it works great for people like you who play stats only.

I also play out every game. I'm also aware that each pitch has its own individual rating, which is like more than what you technically get with stats-only.

This was a weird comment.

[kidd_05_u2]

Originally Posted by locuspc

See this part doesn't make sense to me. Pitch velocity is a huge part of pitcher stuff which leads directly to Ks. Pitch repertoire is the main determinant of how effective a pitcher will be as a starter rather than a reliver.

Pitch velocity doesn't matter because 99% of what it does is contained in Stuff. If pitch velocity was removed from the player profile nobody would change the way they play the game.
Have you ever noticed that there is no player creation modifier for velocity? If velocity truly matters, why is there a single velocity for the entire pitch repertoire? Pitch velocity is more decoration than an actual rating in OOTP.

Originally Posted by locuspc

Try a two pitch guy as a starter and tell me repertoire means very little!

Exactly. Not much about the pitch repertoire matters besides whether the pitch list is 2 or 2+. Almost everything else is more decoration than real ratings. (I'm aware of the marginal effects pitch types have on other things like Changeups on SBs, no need to point that out).

Originally Posted by locuspc

Movement determines the pitcher's ability to avoid hard contact. IRL, pitch movement both helps the pitcher avoid hard contact and helps him get swinging strikes, but in the game the latter is rolled into Stuff. Is this just a terminology hangup? Would you feel better about things if Movement were instead labeled "The Skill Of Avoiding Hard Contact"? .

What I want is exactly the opposite. I want a more complex engine so that the Movement rating can also influence a pitcher's ability to get swinging strikes, to put it in your terms. Wouldn't it be fun for each pitch in a player's arsenal to have its own movement rating?


I know the game is good at what it does and most people here see no need for change. Me? I'm somewhat disappointed that it's been more than 15 years since I discovered the game and there are still no plans for an engine that can simulate pitch by pitch or have a more fun set of core pitcher ratings than K% - HRA - pBabip - BB% with misleading labels put on top.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

I'm sure they'll continue to work on making the pitches look prettier in future releases, yes. Don't stay up late expecting for them to change a "deficient player ratings system" because for historical players and many current players and people doing fictional GM stuff it works really well for what it does, which is simulate baseball.

They stayed up late changing it for 25.

[locuspc]

That's just wrong. If two players have equal Stuff rating but one has high velo and one has low velo, I expect the low velo one to have a longer useful career, while the high velo one is likely to fall off hard once age starts to slow him down. Likewise, if I have two prospects with equal Stuff but one has high velo and one has low, I have greater hopes for the high velo prospect because the velo will have a multiplicative effect on any TCR or development lab boost he gets. And all of this is mediated by the pitch repertoire, some pitches are heavily impacted by velo (fastball) and some not at all (changeup). Each pitcher's individual pitch mix determines how he'll respond to velo changes.

If you think velo and pitch repertoire don't matter, you're not engaging with the game's mechanics on a deep level.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by locuspc

See this part doesn't make sense to me. Pitch velocity is a huge part of pitcher stuff which leads directly to Ks. Pitch repertoire is the main determinant of how effective a pitcher will be as a starter rather than a reliver. Try a two pitch guy as a starter and tell me repertoire means very little! And there's no "actual movement", there can't be, if you want actual movement go outside. All there is is numbers in a computer, and the movement rating has plenty to do with numbers in the computer.

Movement determines the pitcher's ability to avoid hard contact. IRL, pitch movement both helps the pitcher avoid hard contact and helps him get swinging strikes, but in the game the latter is rolled into Stuff. Is this just a terminology hangup? Would you feel better about things if Movement were instead labeled "The Skill Of Avoiding Hard Contact"? That would be an easy change, maybe even something you could do yourself with a mod.

Pitch ratings and velocity are not based on data on the effectiveness of pitches which then flow into ratings of movement and stuff. Movement and stuff are based on what the game engine needs to produce the desired output of Ks, HRs, etc. And pitch ratings are based on what the game engine needs to produce those movement and stuff ratings.

[Pelican]

I regard pitch velocity as nothing more than a barometer. When you see a dip in velocity, particularly for a "power pitcher", that's an indication of a problem. It could be injury. It could be fatigue. It could be age. And it could be a mystery. But, when my scout reports it, my guess is that the AI is saying through this gross value than this guy will be less effective.

[luckymann]

Going back to the original point of this thread for a minute, I'm going to give my $0.02 after a few weeks and having imported a couple saves across to v25.

Still too early for me to know personally whether what people are saying about better historical performance is true but this version certainly feels more robust in this area. I think the new ratings system is much more realistic and am looking forward to seeing for myself whether this translates into improved accuracy for historical saves - across all sections of the bell curve.

Looks good, too. I don't play out games but put the game through its paces just to check out how far the graphics have come. Still a few quirks but really that is nitpicking.


Now for the BUT part of my post...

I see this as a fantastic opportunity for the game to be taken to its absolute zenith.

With the stat performance seemingly under control and the graphics looking good and performing well, I continue to advocate a pause on new features just for one cycle to address the issues that for me are holding OOTP back from making that final push to the summit that is so tantalisingly within reach.

There really are only three as I see it and I think each of them is attainable with varying degrees of effort. I will list them top to bottom from my personal perspective:


1. ROSTER MANAGEMENT / GAME ENGINE

This is by far the trickiest of the three but also, in my book, where the biggest improvement is now needed.

Clearly as the almost endless list of saves in my signature shows, I have no trouble in devising ways of putting the game through its paces.

That said, in every one of them it seems I need an increasing number of house rules and the like simply in order to make the game a challenge. In one of those saves, my AAA team - which I have put barely any work into setting up - is currently sitting at 32-1!

It's not that I'm Theo Epstein reincarnate. Quite the opposite - I'm yet to even see an MLB game live. It's just that the game engine is so terrible at roster management and putting a competitive club together.

Just the basics would be a good start. Putting together a roster with enough depth at each position so CFs and shortstops don't spend 80% of a season fatigued. Having the engine look at the franchise holistically and with short-, mid- and long-term mindsets as happens IRL. From there, further improvements should become easier to both conceive and implement once things start heading in the right direction.

For historical replays, I think work needs to be done to more closely replicate franchise histories. Real-world owner tendencies and traits over the years, more accurate market sizes and budgets - that sort of thing. These seem to be much better for recent years but the early section is a bit of a mess.


2. NEGRO LEAGUES

It goes to show how important I view point 1 that I have put it above my beloved NeLers.

It will now be a minimum of 4 years that will have passed between the Dec 2020 MLB announcement regarding NeL as a major league and OOTP having made any concerted effort to bring these guys into line.

If you'll pardon the somewhat belligerent tone for a second, that is nothing short of a shameful blight on OOTP. You know what needs to happen. Please now go out and get it done for v26.


3. REPORT INTERFACE / ANALYTICS

For a game that is so state-of-the-art in so many ways, the primitive stat reports and lack of analytical tools in OOTP is a travesty.

I have previously suggested some sort of user-pay add-on that those interested in this part of the game can purchase separately and I still feel this is the best solution.


I know there are other aspects that some people will prioritise above these or think should be added to the list and that some of the Kool-Aid Crew will disagree with my assessment of where things stand.

That's OK, the important thing is that I feel much better having now got this off my chest. Thanks for listening, you've been a great help.

G

[ZepTepi]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

I'm sure they'll continue to work on making the pitches look prettier in future releases, yes. Don't stay up late expecting for them to change a "deficient player ratings system" because for historical players and many current players and people doing fictional GM stuff it works really well for what it does, which is simulate baseball.

I get that you want the game to be the best it can be and, frankly, everyone wants that but everyone doesn't have the same idea of what the best is. At the end of the day OOTP is a stat sim with a graphical representation of MLB games added as an additional feature but is not the main component of the game rather than the other way around. It's not a video game with stats added as an additional feature.


I agree with you that there are things with the stats that the game would benefit from having....enhanced, but it's still miles ahead of anything else out there and I believe the devs have worked their butts off to give us what the game is today with V25.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by luckymann

3. REPORT INTERFACE / ANALYTICS

For a game that is so state-of-the-art in so many ways, the primitive stat reports and lack of analytical tools in OOTP is a travesty.

I have previously suggested some sort of user-pay add-on that those interested in this part of the game can purchase separately and I still feel this is the best solution.


G

If they decided to upgrade the stat tracking and that became the "Big New Feature" for a future version (and it would be a new feature and not fit within your "pause" request) I'm totally fine with that. But it needs to added as a part of the base game, not as paid content.

OOTP proper (PT is not OOTP) has never had paid DLC. To do any paid DLC would be PR suicide between the "what are they going to charge for next?" questions, the endless complaint posts (and I mean endless as the topic would never go away even if they never added another "pay to use" feature), and the sales it would cost.

I'm not seeing why adding a robust new stat tracking module would be any different than adding 3d, probably the biggest code add they have ever done, within OOTP proper?

I'm not against adding better stat tracking. I'm not against a more in depth front office experience ala FM etc. etc. I am against these or any features being added as paid DLC. It has nothing to do with drinking the Kool-Aid and everything to do with keeping OOTP a "one price" complete game.

[locuspc]

They're already selling the same game over again every year with incremental improvements, adding pay DLC on top of that would be tough to swallow.

[pstrickert]

I guess your definition of incremental is different than mine. Here's the feature list -- with more still to come: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...h.z1tohn23m6lj

[Garlon]

I think that many do not realize how advanced the game actually is and how much of an improvement the updates actually are in OOTP 25. Regarding historicals, there are really no mode statistics to use for modeling players or modeling league output each season.

Give credit to Matt Arnold for taking the time to work on these things.


I posted this in the historical forum.


New for OOTP25

1. New and more accurate Fielding Range ratings for all players in history.

2. New OF Arm ratings based on advanced historical fielding stats.

3. New Framing ratings for all catchers.

4. New Pitcher Hold Baserunner ratings based on advanced historical statistics.

5. New Baserunning Skills ratings based on advanced historical statistics.

6. Pitcher Splits since 1914 (not yet in the game though). We have Batter Splits since 1901.

7. New Modifier to model the distribution of Airouts between the Outfield and Infield for all seasons.

8. New Modifiers for Sac Bunting to model positions player rates, pitcher rates, and success rates each season.

9. New and improved pitcher BABIP ratings.

10. More accurate R/G each season.




These are the various elements that OOTP models per season and per player.


League Elements Each Season Based on Historical Rates

1. Batting Average

2. BABIP

3. Doubles per non-HR Hit

4. Triples per non-HR Hit

5. HR per AB

6. BB per PA

7. HBP per PA

8. OBP (indirectly by modeling the above elements accurately)

9. SLG (indirectly by modeling the above elements accurately)

10. OPS (indirectly by modeling the above elements accurately)

11. Strikeouts per AB

12. SB per times reaching First Base

13. SB success rate

14. Sac Bunts per Out (technically per Out – K)

15. Sac Bunt rates for position players

16. Sac Bunt rates for pitchers

17. Sac Bunt success rate

18. Sacrifice Flies per Out (technically per Out – K)

19. Double Play Frequency

20. GIDP frequency as a subset of all Double Plays

21. Runs per Game

22. IPouts per Game Started

23. IPouts per Relief Appearance

24. GO% (essentially GO:AO ratio)

25. Distribution of AO between the outfielders and infielders

26. Wild Pitches per Inning

27. Balks per Inning

28. Passed Balls per Inning

29. Pickoffs per Reched First base

30. XBT% (extra bases taken by players on the basepaths)

31. League FLD%

32. P FLD%

33. C FLD%

34. 1B FLD%

35. 2B FLD%

36. 3B FLD%

37. SS FLD%

38. LF FLD%

39. CF FLD%

40. RF FLD%

41. OF Assist rate

42. Ballpark Factors for BABIP, 2B, 3B, HR including LHB/RHB splits for most seasons.




Player Elements

Batting and Offense Based on Historical Player Statistics

1. BABIP

3. Rate of 2B per non-HR Hit

3. Rate of 3B per non-HR Hit

4. HR per AB

5. Strikeouts per AB

6. BB per PA

7. HBP per PA

8. BA (indirectly by modeling the above elements accurately)

9. OBP (indirectly by modeling the above elements accurately)

10. SLG (indirectly by modeling the above elements accurately)

11. OPS (indirectly by modeling the above elements accurately)

12. Baserunning Skills (frequency of taking extra bases)

13. Stealing Aggressiveness (stealing attempts per reaching first base)

14. Stealing Ability (stolen base success rate)

15. Sac Bunting frequency

16. Batting Splits vs RHP/LHP since 1901




Pitching Based on Historical Player Statistics

1. K per BF

2. HR Allowed per BF

3. BB per BF

4. HBP per BF

5. Balks per BF

6. Wild Pitches per BF

7. GO%

8. Pitcher BABIP against

9. Stamina (IPouts per Game Started or IPouts per Relief Appearance)

10. Hold Baserunners (preventing stolen base attempts)

11. Pitching Splits vs RHB/LHB since 1914 (coming soon to historical games)




Fielding and Defense Based on Historical Player Statistics

1. Infielder Range (adjusted for Team Outs in Play, Team GO%, Team Defensive Efficiency, Team Home Ballpark BABIP factor, Team LHP, and Team BABIP against)

2. Infielder Error Rate

3. Infielder Turn DP Rate (adjusted for expected team double plays based on opportunities)

4. Outfielder Range (adjusted for Team Outs in Play, Team GO%, Team Defensive Efficiency, Team Home Ballpark BABIP factor, and Team BABIP against)

5. Outfielder Error Rate

6. Outfielder Arm (assist rate adjusted for opportunities to make an assist)

7. Catcher Blocking (PB and Error rate)

8. Catcher Framing rate

9. Catcher Arm (CS rate)

10. Positional Eligibility

[Guthrien]

If nothing else this thread has convinced me to more deeply explore Historical sims again. I always felt there was a sterility to the players that didn't exist with new seasons because of the statistical knowledge that was available. It sounds like that has changed and it's excited me to go back and enjoy that more (because I very much do from a fan of baseball perspective).

In some sense I feel like the goal is obviously every year should be the best version, and every year the game reaches a stage where that's true. Patch #3 has brought it near my vision and I'm enjoying it without much frustration that isn't my own fault.

I appreciate what this team accomplishes, at the end of the day, there is no alternative like this for the baseball fan, and I see no evidence there will be. I'm glad that doesn't make them lazy like some companies with much bigger budgets.

[locuspc]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

I guess your definition of incremental is different than mine. Here's the feature list -- with more still to come: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...h.z1tohn23m6lj

It's pretty much the same game, with some added features. That's my definition of incremental. OOTP 25 plays a lot like 24 which plays a lot like 23 and so on. I'm not going to say it's not improved, but it's not like a whole new game. It's pretty much the same game with some things tweaked and added, and they want me to buy it all over again. And I did! But adding pay DLC on top of that is too much to ask.

[ZepTepi]

Originally Posted by locuspc

It's pretty much the same game, with some added features. That's my definition of incremental. OOTP 25 plays a lot like 24 which plays a lot like 23 and so on. I'm not going to say it's not improved, but it's not like a whole new game. It's pretty much the same game with some things tweaked and added, and they want me to buy it all over again. And I did! But adding pay DLC on top of that is too much to ask.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.......just tweak it a little bit.

[redranger]

In my opinion each version that comes out is a “better” version of itself. Fir the most part the core is always the same game but I’ll gladly pay the price every year for the tweaks, upgrades, and additions. Very small price to pay for the hours of enjoyment I get every year


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pilight]

This has made for interesting reading. My OOTP13 finally logged me out and did the "can't contact Esellerate" thing so I decided to splurge on the new version. Obviously it is a big improvement in almost every way. OTOH, it feels very familiar. I'm able to use it in pretty much the same way I used the old game.