Best Version Ever??

[David Watts]

Really loving OOTP25 and I really do think this may end up being the best version of the game so far. I have a random debut league playing out season number 6 and I'm loving what I'm seeing so far.

Thought I should say thank you to Garlon and the developers for all their hard work. Especially since I kind of threw a few tantrums when the game first dropped, due to the adjust/weaken confusion over the last 2 versions. Just hope in the future, if changes are made in how a key component of the game operates, the users of the game get a heads up. I've moved on now and I'm really enjoying OOTP.

[pstrickert]

I'm glad you mentioned Garlon. He deserves a standing ovation for his dedication to the game. There were days during beta testing when he literally worked around the clock. I couldn't even begin to calculate how much time and effort he has invested in the game over the years. But it is mammoth.

[Reed]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Really loving OOTP25 and I really do think this may end up being the best version of the game so far. I have a random debut league playing out season number 6 and I'm loving what I'm seeing so far.

Thought I should say thank you to Garlon and the developers for all their hard work. Especially since I kind of threw a few tantrums when the game first dropped, due to the adjust/weaken confusion over the last 2 versions. Just hope in the future, if changes are made in how a key component of the game operates, the users of the game get a heads up. I've moved on now and I'm really enjoying OOTP.

Totally agree. Also, a lot of effort was put into the defensive ratings (Garlon) along with revamping the other ratings must have been a major undertaking and I think the effort has paid off.
Also, the animations have taken a big step forward since the pawns of just a few years ago. (Although a slight step back this last patch were it is a single but it looks like it skips by the OF who quickly runs back to get it).

PS- It is going to be hard to convince me that OOTP 26 is going to be any better than OOTP 25 since 25 is so good.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Reed

Totally agree. Also, a lot of effort was put into the defensive ratings along with revamping the other ratings must have been a major undertaking and I think the effort has paid off.
Also, the animations have taken a big step forward since the pawns of just a few years ago. (Although a slight step back this last patch were it is a single but it looks like it skips by the OF who quickly runs back to get it).

I love the defensive ratings this year. Love that I can look at a player known for his defense/arm and see it reflected in his ratings. That was not always the case in the past. Back in my old strat card and dice days it was always fun to see how the top rated fielders performed.

[Syd Thrift]

I think my favorite part of all that (yes, thanks Garlon) has been the way that pBABIP is practically no longer necessary for the vast majority of pitchers. I always figured, just looking at the players involved, that guys like Jim Palmer benefitted from the defense behind them moreso than were actually, like, skilled at generating weak contact (and in the offing that a guy like Nolan Ryan had lower than expected BABIPs in large part because he played the majority of his career at the Big A and in the Astrodome).

[KJDelaney]

Best version ever, no.

[Pelican]

Others are going to come down yay or nay on new features and approaches, which can be unsettling for those who have played for many years and have certain habits and expectations. I get that. In my year five, I'm still impressed by the new stuff, perhaps remembering back to when it was all new.

It's not sexy or controversial, but what I appreciate is the steady refinement of so many components of the game. Only those who play a lot, and who have played a lot with previous versions, can fully appreciate those more subtle changes. This year (more thanks, Garlon) has seen a heap of new such improvements. For those of us who play mostly historical seasons, it's a bonanza. I am seeing the best results, from the standpoint of realism, and a deeper experience overall.

[Pendragon]

Originally Posted by Pelican

For those of us who play mostly historical seasons, it's a bonanza. I am seeing the best results, from the standpoint of realism, and a deeper experience overall.

This for sure. I was on the fence about getting OOTP 25, but on this alone, it's become my favorite version of the game (I've been playing since 20).

[tayloraj]

As a mostly-historical simmer who's been playing since OOTPX, big same. The game took a huge step forward this year and I couldn't be happier.

[Sweed]

My experience with OOTP is it improves every year, with some years having larger growth than others. I think the ratings expansion is a big addition to v25 along with Garlon's work. The development lab/development influence is another nice jump for the game. Add in, using Pelican's words, the "steady refinement of so many components of the game" and v25 is the best so far.

[kidd_05_u2]

I'll push back a little.
The game improves every year, there is no question about that. However, I can't help but feel very disappointed in seeing the direction the game is NOT taking.

The developers choose to keep dedicating a lot of resources to refining the historical game and tweaking the current game simulation engine, but dedicate no resources to the development of a new game engine (physics-based or not) that allows for more complexity and a better ratings system.

Honestly, I'm extremely surprised at the positive reception for the rating changes in v25. I want my pitcher's velocity to mean something. I'm not happy with something as lame as Control = BB% and Movement = xHR% + yBabip. But apparently, there is no chance of that changing anytime soon and we have to make do with a pBabip rating (I find it ridiculous that this and HRA get displayed).

We may be forever doomed to play with an engine that can't really tell apart an Aroldis Chapman fastball from a Sandy Koufax curveball (or even a Sandy Koufax fastball from a Sandy Koufax curveball), but at least we will always have pBabip.

[locuspc]

I don't know how you would distinguish an Aroldis Chapman fastball from a Sandy Koufax curveball except by the stats they generate, of which yes, pbabip is one. If you don't like the jargony name call it "the skill of generating soft contact". Different pitches have different impacts on strikeouts, walks, groundball/flyball, they develop and regress differently, but at the end of the day, it's all about the result of a plate appearance. Even if you had a physics engine, which would certainly come with a heaping helping of bugs, in the end it would just be a very complicated way of generating outcomes of plate appearances.

[kidd_05_u2]

Originally Posted by locuspc

I don't know how you would distinguish an Aroldis Chapman fastball from a Sandy Koufax curveball except by the stats they generate

Well, for starters, one moves really fast and the other doesn't. One moves rather straight for 60 feet and the other kinda bends in the air.

Originally Posted by locuspc

Even if you had a physics engine, which would certainly come with a heaping helping of bugs, in the end it would just be a very complicated way of generating outcomes of plate appearances.

Maybe the outcomes should just be the roll of an unweighted dice then? The entire point of my post is that I want a more complex game engine that takes into consideration a lot more variables to produce outcomes.

Edit: Sorry for the sarcasm.

[locuspc]

Originally Posted by kidd_05_u2

Well, for starters, one moves really fast and the other doesn't. One moves rather straight for 60 feet and the other kinda bends in the air.

Not in a videogame it doesn't. There's no air, there's no speed, it's all just numbers in the computer. If you want a really fast ball or a curving trajectory, you're going to have to, horror of horrors, go outside.

[kidd_05_u2]

Originally Posted by locuspc

Not in a videogame it doesn't. There's no air, there's no speed, it's all just numbers in the computer. If you want a really fast ball or a curving trajectory, you're going to have to, horror of horrors, go outside.

My first baseball game was MLB 2k2, some 20-odd years ago. Believe it or not, Randy Johnson's fastball looked different than Barry Zito's curveball.

Anyway, my main point is not all about graphical representation. I'm sure the developers would agree that you can build a much more complex pitcher/batter model and interactions without the need of a physics-based engine, even if they don't see a benefit or agree the change is needed.

[locuspc]

Originally Posted by kidd_05_u2

My first baseball game was MLB 2k2, some 20-odd years ago. Believe it or not, Randy Johnson's fastball looked different than Barry Zito's curveball.

Well, good news, the fastballs look different from the curveballs in OOTP too.

[Johnny Case]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Really loving OOTP25 and I really do think this may end up being the best version of the game so far. I have a random debut league playing out season number 6 and I'm loving what I'm seeing so far.

Totally agree. The best!

[Johnny Case]

Originally Posted by locuspc

Well, good news, the fastballs look different from the curveballs in OOTP too.

Yes -- and you gotta love the very varied pitching motions!

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by kidd_05_u2

I'll push back a little.
The game improves every year, there is no question about that. However, I can't help but feel very disappointed in seeing the direction the game is NOT taking.

The developers choose to keep dedicating a lot of resources to refining the historical game and tweaking the current game simulation engine, but dedicate no resources to the development of a new game engine (physics-based or not) that allows for more complexity and a better ratings system.

Honestly, I'm extremely surprised at the positive reception for the rating changes in v25. I want my pitcher's velocity to mean something. I'm not happy with something as lame as Control = BB% and Movement = xHR% + yBabip. But apparently, there is no chance of that changing anytime soon and we have to make do with a pBabip rating (I find it ridiculous that this and HRA get displayed).

We may be forever doomed to play with an engine that can't really tell apart an Aroldis Chapman fastball from a Sandy Koufax curveball (or even a Sandy Koufax fastball from a Sandy Koufax curveball), but at least we will always have pBabip.

One of the improvements made was to make pBABIP at average or very close to it for the vast majority of pitchers in the game.

As for rewriting the engine… you’re running into the issue where it works really well for what it does, so well that to include a newer, different engine based on physics you’d almost 100% need to include the old engine for historical play for years if not forever. And aside from everything else, that’s the big lift, probably the biggest ask. It’s entirely possible this will never be a bridge OOTP crosses, that if a game comes out and does a physics based baseball sim, that game will not be OOTP.

It’s just a drastically different means of producing baseball than the current game, which is entirely outcome based, is.

I do think they can continue to improve along the edges, in fact I submitted a way I think they could get away from the “set pitches” model, but that’s still an add on to the existing results based system. Also, it’s silly to say that like v20, which also used this model and had fewer features, was “better” because, I don’t know, you didn’t realize the lift was that heavy back then. The whole point of the game is that it makes incremental improvements every year, which, sure, is going to mean that like every version should be better than the last, and so posts like these feel a little redundant. But I mean, unless you’re a big fan of the Japanese leagues, i just don’t see how one can say it’s not the best version…

[kidd_05_u2]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

As for rewriting the engine… you’re running into the issue where it works really well for what it does

It's an engine that leaves you with a deficient player ratings system (subjective of course) and limits you to a baseball game representation where every pitcher, every batter, and every pitch will always feel almost exactly the same from one another. I'm not asking for The Show, but I honestly can't tell the difference between a 85mph fastball and a 100mph fastball, can't tell a ball from a strike most of the time, etc...

Even if you throw out the graphics part of it, you still have a boring ratings system where pitch velocity and pitch repertoire mean very little, the movement rating has absolutely nothing to do with actual movement, and on and on.

I love OOTP for what it is and I 100% agree that v25 is the best version. I just wish the developers' focus would shift from endlessly tinkering around the edges of a limited system and they instead started working toward an engine revamp that would make the game significantly better and more attractive to a broader audience. I'm aware this is not happening for a variety of reasons.