Diving Catches

[Garlon]

Jasper70 is right. Those are throwing errors by infielders. It may look like the 1Bmen is not making a catch but it is really they are not baking a scoop. You can look at box scores and see that those are errors on the infielders and not 1B.

[Ktulu]

Originally Posted by GDawg

I think the issue is there just aren't enough animations at the moment to cover all the different situations that can occur on a baseball diamond (though they seem to be pretty well represented in the textual play by play).

This is the issue. It's why you see the same diving SS throw to 1B error animation for both a throwing error by the SS and a dropped ball by the 1B. The dropped ball one is a lot more common if your 1B isn't good. You probably won't see it much if you have a good 1B.

A lot of these have been cleaned up, but there are still issues that persist. So when one is found post it in the movement thread.

Top issues right now:

- too many diving catches, especially on plays where the fielder isn't diving according to the pbp
- too many OF throw timing issues that could be better resolved by having more throws just be off-line rather than delayed or slowed down to match runner speed.
- middle infielders moving towards the OF after receiving cutoff. Doesn't affect actual play, but it sure looks annoying.
- a diving infielder is too often a predictor of an error occurring. There should be more errors with standard animations and more successful plays with a diving infielder.
- too many grounders to middle infielders that look like easy double plays when they're not and not enough attempts by 2B to make the throw attempt to 1B.
- groundballs fielded by the pitcher can have awkward timings. Line drives to the pitcher are also too slow.

[zappa1]

Originally Posted by Ktulu

Top issues right now:

- too many diving catches, especially on plays where the fielder isn't diving according to the pbp
- too many OF throw timing issues that could be better resolved by having more throws just be off-line rather than delayed or slowed down to match runner speed.
- middle infielders moving towards the OF after receiving cutoff. Doesn't affect actual play, but it sure looks annoying.
- a diving infielder is too often a predictor of an error occurring. There should be more errors with standard animations and more successful plays with a diving infielder.
- too many grounders to middle infielders that look like easy double plays when they're not and not enough attempts by 2B to make the throw attempt to 1B.
- groundballs fielded by the pitcher can have awkward timings. Line drives to the pitcher are also too slow.

I want to add to this list about trailing runners are always advancing now. By that what I mean is the batter advancing on a throw to try to get another runner. In this version, it's always. Yes always. Not like that last year. Every throw to home or third, the batter always advances. Doesn't matter how slow the batter is. In older games I play, the pitcher gets a hit and even he advances always. At least check into this. It's not normal to say the least. Always is wrong. Thank you. I know, I know exaggerating a bit on my part. But it's way too often it might as well be always.

[zappa1]

Also why does the runner on 3rd not run home on some obvious plays. Instead, he runs back to the base. How about 1st and 3rd 1 out. Ground ball to 2nd as they start the double play. Get the out at 2nd and the throw to 1st is late the batter is safe. Only to see the runner on 3rd is still there. He ran back to the bag. What?

[md40022]

Originally Posted by zappa1

Also why does the runner on 3rd not run home on some obvious plays. Instead, he runs back to the base. How about 1st and 3rd 1 out. Ground ball to 2nd as they start the double play. Get the out at 2nd and the throw to 1st is late the batter is safe. Only to see the runner on 3rd is still there. He ran back to the bag. What?

Yes. The runner on 3rd is far too, umm, conservative it seems. I very much agree with this.

I've yet to run into the example that you give. I would have lost my ind with that one haha. But I have seen man on 3rd, infield is NOT playing in, standard grounder to 2B or SS and the runner stays at 3rd..... which should never, ever be the case. So to have seen it several times already, yeah that could definitely use adjustment.

[Blublub]

For me the biggest issue with all the diving catches is that I've yet to see someone dive and miss. If there were a few misses I think it would be fine, but now as soon as you see it load the dive animation you know it's an out.

[texasmame]

I do wish you couldn't tell the outcome of certain plays in advance based solely on the animations.

[tonnage]

Originally Posted by zappa1

Also why does the runner on 3rd not run home on some obvious plays. Instead, he runs back to the base. How about 1st and 3rd 1 out. Ground ball to 2nd as they start the double play. Get the out at 2nd and the throw to 1st is late the batter is safe. Only to see the runner on 3rd is still there. He ran back to the bag. What?

Perhaps your 3rd base coach is holding him up? Not sure the impact a 3rd base coach has in OOTP but I would assume it is something or why have them? I don't see this that often.

[md40022]

Originally Posted by tonnage

Perhaps your 3rd base coach is holding him up? Not sure the impact a 3rd base coach has in OOTP but I would assume it is something or why have them? I don't see this that often.

With the example he gave though, there is no 3rd base coach on the planet who would hold the runner there.



I haven't seen the exact scenario that he gave, but I agree with the point that runners on 3rd hold on batted balls WAYYYYYYY too much and I don't use base coaches. When the IF is not playing in and the ball is hit on the ground to 2B or SS - you are running home. That has been baseball logic sine forever. Yet that's not always the case in OOTP, for whatever reason.

[tonnage]

Originally Posted by md40022

... and I don't use base coaches.

Really? Is this for the money savings or for another reason?

[Garlon]

Here is the distribution of Error types at 1B since 1920. I do not think the game currently has any issue here. We should only be getting a couple missed throws per season by 1Bmen in the game.


From BBR I have a breakdown of 1B Errors as Errors on Catches, Errors from Fielding, and Errors on Throws.


1920-1945 1B

Catch: 24.8%
Field: 53.6%
Throw: 21.6%



1946-1976 1B

Catch: 15.5%
Field: 74.3%
Throw: 10.2%



1977-1997 1B

Catch: 16.0%
Field: 69.9%
Throw: 14.1%



1998-2023 1B

Catch: 21.2%
Field: 56.9%
Throw: 21.9%



Since 1977, errors on catches (receiving a throw at 1B from another infielder) account for 18.7% of all 1B Errors.


In 2023 the average team made 7 Errors at 1B. 7 * 0.187 = 1.3

We should only be seeing like 1 or 2 errors per season per team by 1Bmen on catches receiving a throw.

[md40022]

Originally Posted by tonnage

Really? Is this for the money savings or for another reason?

Nothing to do with money. It's more or less for the exact reasons mentioned in the baserunning examples here.

Something is off with the way runners on 3rd base get overly conservative. Okay. To your point, do I fire the 3rd base coach? Then the next 3rd base coach comes in and it's the exact same problem so do I fire him too thinking maybe I caught bad luck twice in a row? Or, is this a game issue and I'm recycling 3rd base coaches every half season for no reason.

I do respect the unknown part of how a coach will or won't help, but I already got that with the hitting and pitching coaches. Bringing in base coaches in a game that has some graphical shortcomings only creates potential problems with how I want to run my organization. Someone earlier in this thread (or maybe it was another thread) mentioned guys stealing 2nd don't look to be running hard - do you fire a base coach over that or is that just a visual issue in the game? So, to answer your question, I guess it's just a personal decision to me. I do use all the other coaches, but the base coaches with some of the wonky on field visuals, would be getting fired by me left and right over weird stuff that probably has nothing to do with them lol.

Another example -- sometimes when a guy gets thrown out at home the visuals make it look like he got thrown out by a mile. The catcher is literally waiting there with the ball in hand and the guy is just rounding 3rd base. I know that's an issue with the visuals in the game, but if you happen to see that twice in the same week are we firing the 3rd base coach? Reality says it's prob a visual issue and the guy wasn't thrown out by 90 feet, buttttttt..... Until that aspect of the game tightens up - I have no desire to use base coaches. I'd be firing them weekly blaming them for visual problems with the game.

[tonnage]

Fair enough. It would be nice to know what the actual impact of base coaches really is?

[md40022]

Originally Posted by tonnage

Fair enough. It would be nice to know what the actual impact of base coaches really is?

Part of me appreciates the mystery of it and trying to make your own determination. Problem being, some of the visual stuff is so out of whack on the base paths that it makes base coach evaluation darn near impossible,,, at least IMO.

[Bunktown Ballers]

Originally Posted by vxm

Will the high amount of diving catches and the 1st baseman dropped throws be addressed in the next update?
Thanks

The last game I played i decided to count how many diving catches & there was 17 diving catches in 1 game. Possibly on the low side of a all-games average.

BB

[Bunktown Ballers]

Originally Posted by md40022

With the example he gave though, there is no 3rd base coach on the planet who would hold the runner there.



I haven't seen the exact scenario that he gave, but I agree with the point that runners on 3rd hold on batted balls WAYYYYYYY too much and I don't use base coaches. When the IF is not playing in and the ball is hit on the ground to 2B or SS - you are running home. That has been baseball logic sine forever. Yet that's not always the case in OOTP, for whatever reason.

I've seen this happen about 5 times in the 12 games I've played. Way too much

[md40022]

Originally Posted by Bunktown Ballers

The last game I played i decided to count how many diving catches & there was 17 diving catches in 1 game. Possibly on the low side of a all-games average.

BB

It feels like 50% of outs made in the OF are diving catches.

Slight side story... my brother just stopped by less than an hour ago to pick something up from my place. I had OOTP going. He's just a casual baseball guy, but he's a big gamer and I thought he'd appreciate the depth and strategy aspect of OOTP. I give him a little glance and literally theeee very first batter hits a ball into the RF corner and the right fielder disappears as he's retrieving the ball, and the ball then gets thrown back into the infield by "the invisible man" out in RF and of course the cut-off man is standing ridiculously out of position at the SS position even though the runner was just pulling up at 2nd base with his double....... Naturally, my brother called out every single one of those visual glitches and said he'd seen enough.

All of us long time OOTP people take this stuff for what it is and it doesn't really have much impact on our enjoyment of the game, butttttttt I must say that today I made my first ever attempt to "sell" the game on someone else and these areas where some visual clean-up could be needed definitely did NOT do the game any favors

[Syd Thrift]

I am mostly sure you see this mainly in historical leagues for two reasons:

1. There are way more balls in play in historical leagues, like in 1973 there are literally about half as many strikeouts as there were in 2019., and

2. The way OOTP accounts for lower BABIP is by assuming it’s because of high fielder ability instead of more weak contact.

What I mean by that is that basically in a 1970s league when defensive efficiency is like 5-10% higher than the modern day, the game still generates as many 1 star, 2 star, etc. plays as in the modern day (and I believe those frequencies are generated off of FanGraphs stats), but in order to get the balls in play to work out right the game essentially increases the chances by fielders to make those plays by that extra 5-10%. That means in turn that “50/50” plays get made more than 50% of the time, and so you’re going to see incrementally more diving stops and so on.

The “right” way to fix this, which would be to change the distribution of events according to BABIP instead of the player range, is kind of a big lift, would surely create issues downstream, and the current way works really well for people who don’t watch the games play out (the defensive metrics are still a little skewed but it seems like practically nobody looks at those). I’ve pointed this out as well as what my “fix” would be but to be perfectly honest, it’s tougher than it sounds.

The other side issue is I think one animation in particular that gets used on errors on balls hit to the zone the defender is in or right next to them where they fall down, get up, and make the throw. I expect that will be fixed just by creating new animations for it (I’d prefer seeing the player knocking down the ball in that instance, even when it winds up as an infield hit). I’m not sure if the graphics guys have the bandwidth to add new animations in mid season though, and I also don’t know if they can convince Markus to model that for them at this very moment (tongue in cheek to the last bit but Markus did model a lot of the original animations).

[Ctrane]

In the hundreds of games I’ve played I can’t remember a single time where a diving outfielder had the ball get by. I’ve also seen 40 rated outfielders make diving catches.

[Syd Thrift]

There definitely should be misplayed balls for doubles, etc. animations introduced. As with the falling down one, I expect there to be more and more added. As for bad defenders making stops, like, the game is probability based and so even a poor fielder who might only have a 5% of making a play will nevertheless make it 5% of the time.