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Old 11-08-2023, 02:08 PM   #321
Cobra Mgr
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I agree with you. But he was still miles ahead of Zach Wilson. As bad as Tebow was, it doesn't come close.
My mind can't concentrate when the QB'ing is bad, so I readily admit I really haven't peered into Wilson more than the final results. Usually, if I can't expect decent play behind center, I find something else to watch. That is why Tebow stood out for me. Cause Denver was still relevant back then even with him throwing. So I was still looking at this catastrophe somehow in the postseason. Usually when the QB is that horrendous, they don't get to the postseason or played during prime time. So when Wilson is on, I mostly have the game on as background noise.
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Old 11-08-2023, 03:19 PM   #322
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Jamarcus Russell was MUCH worse.

Third year for Wilson, Russell lasted for three years.

Wilson's completion rate is right at 60%, with a 72 rating. Russell's third year was 48%, with a 60 rating, AND had a higher INT rate.

Not sure I can find a worse QB than Jamarcus, statistically.

Edit. Ryan Leaf. Oh God.
Relative to the league he played in, Jared Goff had IIRC one of the 3 worst first-year performances in DVOA history (I think Kelly Stouffer, who didn't get his "first" until 1992 when he'd been in the league for several years, ranked very slightly below him) and one of the worst 5 of all time, IIRC worse than Leaf's rookie year. It's hard to look at modern players and compare them to players from even a decade ago because game has become so pass-heavy and passers are required to be so, so much better than they used to be.
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Old 11-08-2023, 03:22 PM   #323
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You guys remember Heath Shuler?
A clear contender for worst ever. 15-33 TD-Ints, 49.2% lifetime completion rate. Thanks for sharing. I think.
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Old 11-08-2023, 09:29 PM   #324
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To those that haven't seen much of Wilson, this was pretty close to how bad it regularly was last season and generally how bad it gets to be every few weeks. It's to the point that throws like this one feel like a legitimate achievement and usually draws praise from commentators because the standard is so low. The reason the Jets lost by 21 in this one despite Wilson not playing that much worse than he has in a good amount of games is that the defense, while being as terrific as it usually is, didn't force turnovers while the Jets had 3.
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Old 11-09-2023, 12:14 AM   #325
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this is all moot because we're getting 9 weeks of tommy devito
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Old 11-09-2023, 09:49 AM   #326
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To those that haven't seen much of Wilson, this was pretty close to how bad it regularly was last season and generally how bad it gets to be every few weeks. It's to the point that throws like this one feel like a legitimate achievement and usually draws praise from commentators because the standard is so low. The reason the Jets lost by 21 in this one despite Wilson not playing that much worse than he has in a good amount of games is that the defense, while being as terrific as it usually is, didn't force turnovers while the Jets had 3.
This is spot on. For those that also blame the offensive line, and many times rightfully so, that didn't seem like the case against the Chargers. I watched the game. IMO he had plenty of time to throw the ball. Then I learned 6 of his 8 sacks came after 4 seconds.

I root for this guy to get better, I just can't see it.
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Old 11-10-2023, 12:12 AM   #327
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If you were to start all over in the NFL & put every player in the draft, how many rounds would it take before the 2nd Panther was picked ( I assume Brian Burns would be a top 100 player)?
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Old 11-10-2023, 10:11 AM   #328
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Both the Panthers and Bears looked terrible. But the Bears had an undrafted free agent at QB. I bet 15 bucks with a friend on the Panthers. Why? Because I couldn't find someone to take them. There was no way I could watch that game without something on it.

I like watching Thursday night games because of the Prime Vision option. I thought the Panthers had a shot. But 6 points on offense against the Bears, c'mon.
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Old 11-10-2023, 02:00 PM   #329
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If you were to start all over in the NFL & put every player in the draft, how many rounds would it take before the 2nd Panther was picked ( I assume Brian Burns would be a top 100 player)?
Burns would go very high. Bryce Young would still probably go early though (possibly even before Burns, depends on how many teams use their first pick on a QB but I'd imagine it'd be somewhere around 16-24 of them), and Donte Jackson would also probably go early as well. Guys like Frankie Luvu, Shaq Thompson, Derrick Brown and Ickey Ekwonu are strong mid-round candidates (offensive linemen are notoriously late bloomers in Ekwonu's case, a team or two could definitely fall in love with his potential). Taylor Moton and Austin Corbett could be mid-round candidates based on reputation but between their rough seasons and big contracts (assuming those stay in place in this scenario) there's a good chance they slip. All in all though, a pretty bleh collection of talent.
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Old 11-10-2023, 03:05 PM   #330
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Burns would go very high. Bryce Young would still probably go early though (possibly even before Burns, depends on how many teams use their first pick on a QB but I'd imagine it'd be somewhere around 16-24 of them), and Donte Jackson would also probably go early as well. Guys like Frankie Luvu, Shaq Thompson, Derrick Brown and Ickey Ekwonu are strong mid-round candidates (offensive linemen are notoriously late bloomers in Ekwonu's case, a team or two could definitely fall in love with his potential). Taylor Moton and Austin Corbett could be mid-round candidates based on reputation but between their rough seasons and big contracts (assuming those stay in place in this scenario) there's a good chance they slip. All in all though, a pretty bleh collection of talent.
I can guarantee you Bryce Young doesn't go in the first round if they redrafted. Probably not in the second round either. This is right now. Stroud, on an equally crap team is looking really good. No team would pick Bryce Young in the first round on a redraft.

This doesn't mean he can't improve, or do better with better weapons. But right now he looks like a borderline bust.

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Old 11-10-2023, 06:13 PM   #331
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I can't call Bryce a bust while there isn't enough talent to make the XFL playoffs. There is no protection. There are no targets. There is no ground game.

And I respect damien's opinion, but Frankie Luvu is the only other player on this team I might say is in the top 10 in his position in the NFL. Shaq has reached the downside of his career & can't complete a season. This is the 1st year the Panthers got any return from their investment in Brown. And anyone who thinks they could salvage anything out of Ekwonu may have at it.

I honestly feel you could see 250 NFL players selected before the 2nd Panther.
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Old 11-10-2023, 06:29 PM   #332
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While were talking QB busts & other failures, on the flip side I thought this graphic was kinda cool on the Tyson Bagent story, which inandofitself is a pretty cool one.. I mean those first 5 opponents are so obscure that I wouldn't even think we'd see them playing in early December (when all the major colleges have finished their schedules and the networks are showing us D3 games...)... You'd probably have to jump from high school to the NFL to top this...
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Old 11-10-2023, 08:27 PM   #333
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I can guarantee you Bryce Young doesn't go in the first round if they redrafted. Probably not in the second round either. This is right now. Stroud, on an equally crap team is looking really good. No team would pick Bryce Young in the first round on a redraft.

This doesn't mean he can't improve, or do better with better weapons. But right now he looks like a borderline bust.
In this hypothetical situation that would never happen, I'm of the opinion that (again) 16-24 teams would come out of the first round with their QB and no fewer than 28 would have that guy by round 2. By that criteria, Bryce Young would 100% be off the board by then. I believe the same would've been true of Josh Rosen a year after being drafted, and pretty much any other 1st-round QB a year after drafting that didn't completely shoot their reputation by then. Imo teams will always value that high end potential on the cheap contract than choose to be stuck with a Minshew or Brissett or be stuck paying a Carr.

I'd also push back on the notion that Stroud's supporting cast is anywhere near comparable to Young's. Stroud has one of the best tackles in the league in Laremy Tunsil, generally has a much, much better offensive line in front of him, Tank Dell has flashed a lot as a rookie, Nico Collins has taken a big step forward this year, and Dalton Schultz would probably be the best option if he were in the Carolina passing game. Stroud has been leaps and bounds ahead of Young for sure but he also has an actual NFL-caliber receiving corps and a line that's closer to league average than the one Young has.
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Old 11-11-2023, 02:25 AM   #334
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In this hypothetical situation that would never happen, I'm of the opinion that (again) 16-24 teams would come out of the first round with their QB and no fewer than 28 would have that guy by round 2. By that criteria, Bryce Young would 100% be off the board by then. I believe the same would've been true of Josh Rosen a year after being drafted, and pretty much any other 1st-round QB a year after drafting that didn't completely shoot their reputation by then. Imo teams will always value that high end potential on the cheap contract than choose to be stuck with a Minshew or Brissett or be stuck paying a Carr.

I'd also push back on the notion that Stroud's supporting cast is anywhere near comparable to Young's. Stroud has one of the best tackles in the league in Laremy Tunsil, generally has a much, much better offensive line in front of him, Tank Dell has flashed a lot as a rookie, Nico Collins has taken a big step forward this year, and Dalton Schultz would probably be the best option if he were in the Carolina passing game. Stroud has been leaps and bounds ahead of Young for sure but he also has an actual NFL-caliber receiving corps and a line that's closer to league average than the one Young has.
I'm not so sure about the QB, but you might be right. Better to take Young, a player with great potential. But the league is so...what have you done for me lately oriented.

I guess if we're going to nitpick, Houston probably has a better roster. But having a few Cowboys cast offs in Noah Brown and Dalton Shultz doesn't make you a good team. I don't think anyone had Houston coming in anywhere but 4th in the div. after looking at that roster. Shultz has never been anything but average until the year Dallas had 3 really good WRs. Before the year even started, most Cowboys fans expected a good year from whoever started at TE.

Sometimes QBs make players look good, and sometimes the players around the QB make the QB look good. It's not always easy to tell which is which. But you can always look at the roster and come to an educated guess.
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Old 11-12-2023, 12:49 AM   #335
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I've always thought it would be a mistake to take a smaller qb that high in the draft. Even Drew Brees didn't make it that high.
Small qbs can be mobile enough to avoid the defense for now.
But what happens when their legs go and they have to stay in the pocket more?

Its like watching Spud Webb. Yeah he was unique but you don't take him #1 and try to build a championship dynasty around him.
I have nothing against small qbs. You could get lucky and find another Brees.
I just think the risk is higher than with taller qbs.
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Old 11-12-2023, 04:15 PM   #336
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Why do professional players not know you aren't down if you aren't touched?
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Old 11-12-2023, 08:06 PM   #337
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Oh look! Chargers lost another in the last minute.
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Old 11-12-2023, 08:13 PM   #338
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How Joe Barry continues to be employed in the NFL blows my mind.
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Old 11-12-2023, 08:16 PM   #339
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Caught the 4th qtr of the Chargers/Lions and for a stretch where I was paying attention - I think it was on the Chargers final drive - Tony Romo was ON FIRE, correctly calling like 4 or 5 plays in row - based upon formation and game situation - that the Chargers were about to run. Impressive.
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Old 11-13-2023, 09:46 AM   #340
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Why do professional players not know you aren't down if you aren't touched?
I can only answer that question if we're talking rookies, college. I can still remember Plaxico Burress in his rookie season. Caught a long pass over the middle sliding to the ground. He immediately got up and spiked it.

I know you're talking about the opposite. But it's the same thing. Some rookies forget you're not down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNOvBSTqLoc

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