Johnny Mostil got cancelled

HonusWagner · 09-02-2023, 07:42 PM

The game just cancelled my Allstar 2B, Johnny Mostil.

Ranked 4th top 2B, 2x allstar at 2B. Then, at the end of this season, he is only available at CF. And am pretty certain during his 2B days he was not an anchor on the basepaths.

How is it the game just switches available positions? Haven't seen this before. The ratings issue could pertain to discrepancies in scouting precision. But that doesn't seem to address the sudden position allocation.

HonusWagner · 09-02-2023, 07:53 PM

It turns out that IRL Mostil did switch to CF for most starts beginning in 1921, which is the next season is in my game.

LansdowneSt · 09-02-2023, 08:39 PM

Part of it is on the game set-up when the option to have single-season fielding, 3-year span fielding, or career fielding is selected. The greater the span, the slower the fade from a old position as a player moves around the diamond. Mentioning it just in case it impacts how you set up your next sim. Here's hoping there is a Free Agent 2B you like out there!

HonusWagner · 09-02-2023, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

Part of it is on the game set-up when the option to have single-season fielding, 3-year span fielding, or career fielding is selected. The greater the span, the slower the fade from a old position as a player moves around the diamond. Mentioning it just in case it impacts how you set up your next sim. Here's hoping there is a Free Agent 2B you like out there!

Thanks! Good to know. Fielding is set at 3yr and ratings recalc is 5yr.

Rain King · 09-02-2023, 11:47 PM

Mostil played 9 games at 2B in 1918 and 1 game in 1921. That's it for his entire career.

Brad K · 09-02-2023, 11:55 PM

I think players who have established they can play a position should not lose that due to real life changes. If they stopped playing a position RL then in OOTP the ratings at that position should be subject to the effects of aging, not be knocked to zero. Pete Rose and Cesar Tovar played all over the diamond but when young players the moves had nothing to do with developing an inability to play a position.

HonusWagner · 09-03-2023, 04:29 PM

Yes, I am not quite following how a 2x allstar (at 2nd no less) can be switched to CF where he is scouted to play like a potato. Just to illustrate, wouldn't I, the GM behind the move, get input from my scout as to how he is likely to perform at the new position? So I mean from the scouting perspective, which I assume is not scouting accurately (scouting is set to normal). Not finding anything coherent there.

Also, I agree the player in these cases retains his access to the previous positions he has experience in. With Mostil, I am already deep in CF. I don't need him there. So now the scenario reads that my team, of which I am the GM, just uselessly compounded depth at CF. Since this is a historical player I could peak into the player's RL stats and view how he's going to perform. I don't do that because I want to keep the number of ways OOTP is exploitable to a respectable minimum. However, had I done that I would not have been concerned about building up CF.

So there's a few things here going on which disrupts gameplay.

LansdowneSt · 09-03-2023, 04:45 PM

This isn't a spoiler on how he played in the OF or how long his career lasted, but know that he was an OF in the minors too. He literally only played 2B for 10 games ever in his historic record (including minors) as a fill-in. If you are recalc'ing him against the historic record, the play in the sim at 2B doesn't matter upon reset of the calculation. That's all that happened. He recalc'ed to the actual historic record.

Looking at his RL fielding, again without spoiling too much, everything that just happened is proper based on the settings selected.

HonusWagner · 09-03-2023, 05:27 PM

Fair enough from data perspective, but from gameplay perspective I was given the option to start him at 2B. The game provided that. I followed it, without knowing what RL stats contained. So while it is true to historical record, as you say, it makes for an abrupt playing experience.

MathBandit · 09-03-2023, 05:36 PM

Pardon my ignorance since I don't generally play historical- but when you choose recalc in the set-up, aren't you specifically ensuring that abruptness for every player? Since no matter what happens to any player during the year, they will always snap back the new recalc values at the start of the next season?

LansdowneSt · 09-03-2023, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MathBandit

Pardon my ignorance since I don't generally play historical- but when you choose recalc in the set-up, aren't you specifically ensuring that abruptness for every player? Since no matter what happens to any player during the year, they will always snap back the new recalc values at the start of the next season?

Yes, no matter where you play them in the sim they "snap back" based on recalc. But an Imported Year/Single Year recalc is more abrupt than a three-year or a five-year (for hitting) or an entire career (for fielding). So, if the fielding parameters were set for "entire career" for fielding - and you need to look for this case specifically at fielding parameters - the 2B skill would likely be retained. Here is a straight import of Jimmie Foxx in 1938 as a three-year Fielding and a Career Fielding. In career, he can play C and 3B in 1938 whereas the tighter window on fielding assessment drops those positions for his 1938 incarnation,

Syd Thrift · 09-03-2023, 06:11 PM

Yeah... I feel like there's a very obvious answer if you don't want things to be rigidly set in stone line that: don't play with recalc and once a player is generated, turn things over to the development engine. Of course that's going to have a lot of other effects as well, but... those are also side effects of the game not rigidly adhering to the "make this player an amalgam of this 3 year period of their career".

HonusWagner · 09-04-2023, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Yeah... I feel like there's a very obvious answer if you don't want things to be rigidly set in stone line that: don't play with recalc and once a player is generated, turn things over to the development engine. Of course that's going to have a lot of other effects as well, but... those are also side effects of the game not rigidly adhering to the "make this player an amalgam of this 3 year period of their career".

I think this might be the way to go.

LansdowneSt · 09-04-2023, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HonusWagner

I think this might be the way to go.

Keep in mind that absent recalc, Ruth would never have become a hitter, Phil Niekro forever a reliever, etc. And if you have minors on versus their MLB debut year, Chili Davis is a catcher, Orel Hershiser is forever a reliever. Whatever they were at the start of the sim, they grow from there as whatever they were at that time. So, it can be a very different way to play a "What If" scenario. Also, players may or may not become great/scrubs according to history. The entirety of their path is as if they are fictional players with historical snapshot starting points.

I'm also not sure of the effect of changing this mid sim as the db loads at league creation.

Syd Thrift · 09-04-2023, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

Keep in mind that absent recalc, Ruth would never have become a hitter, Phil Niekro forever a reliever, etc. And if you have minors on versus their MLB debut year, Chili Davis is a catcher, Orel Hershiser is forever a reliever. Whatever they were at the start of the sim, they grow from there as whatever they were at that time. So, it can be a very different way to play a "What If" scenario. Also, players may or may not become great/scrubs according to history. The entirety of their path is as if they are fictional players with historical snapshot starting points.

I'm also not sure of the effect of changing this mid sim as the db loads at league creation.

Right. Play the game your own way. In this particular case it looks to me like Johnny Mostil was a guy who was used very, very sparingly as a 2B very early in his career and then never again. I'm reminded of how, say, Gary Gaetti was used to fill in at short and second very early on. If you decide that in your universe Gary Gaetti is going to be your starting shortstop and you have 3 year recalc on... well, I feel like the issue stems from using Gaetti ahistorically, not that he's suddenly unable to play a position he stopped playing IRL.

I keep going back to the old dodge of "this is why I only play with fictional players" but if I'm being honest, this is part of why. If my starting shortstop Jeremy Taylor (fake player) is 26 and already not very good at short and I move him off to RF, I'm doing so because I'm able to assess the player as a whole. With actual historical players doing that is going to be some combination of living and dying with recalc, using the development engine, and going into the editor to give a guy ratings you think he "should" have. The game will let you do any of this (of course you need to turn off fielding recalc if you're going to do the last 2 things) but to me it just feels more "realistic" to have some guys rated across several positions they could potentially play and then pushing them down the defensive spectrum as they age out of the harder ones.

CubsFan1967 · 09-05-2023, 03:39 PM

My stepdad grew up on the same street as Mostil lived on in Chicago. He would bring home balls, bats, and gloves for the kids in the neighborhood. Legend has it that he was so fast as a CF he would catch foul balls down the rightfield line.

David Watts · 09-05-2023, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

Keep in mind that absent recalc, Ruth would never have become a hitter, Phil Niekro forever a reliever, etc. And if you have minors on versus their MLB debut year, Chili Davis is a catcher, Orel Hershiser is forever a reliever. Whatever they were at the start of the sim, they grow from there as whatever they were at that time. So, it can be a very different way to play a "What If" scenario. Also, players may or may not become great/scrubs according to history. The entirety of their path is as if they are fictional players with historical snapshot starting points.

I'm also not sure of the effect of changing this mid sim as the db loads at league creation.

Some of the studs remaining relievers can be alleviated somewhat by selecting base stamina on entire career. You can also select entire career for position players too and it will give the AI options when it comes to guys like Chili Davis.

Daniel_09 · 09-05-2023, 04:55 PM

Most of the time I do historical simulations, what works best for me is for the base fielding ratings is to use Career, since he will have the ratings of both IF and OF that he had in his career, of course in many positions his current ratings will be low and can become higher over time (historical and minor league players). As mentioned in another post, historical season without recalc is a starting photo and from the next day it is somewhat fictional.

For stamina pitchers I also use career, so that the stamina is adjusted to the majority of the pitcher's career, if it is Single season or 3 years ago is a short snapshot of reality, with some settings if you start a season in 1998 John Smoltz would have the stamina for a starter, if you start a season in 2000 he would have the stamina to be just a reliever.

If you use career stamina is something in between.

ayaghmour2 · 09-05-2023, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

Keep in mind that absent recalc, Ruth would never have become a hitter, Phil Niekro forever a reliever, etc. And if you have minors on versus their MLB debut year, Chili Davis is a catcher, Orel Hershiser is forever a reliever. Whatever they were at the start of the sim, they grow from there as whatever they were at that time. So, it can be a very different way to play a "What If" scenario. Also, players may or may not become great/scrubs according to history. The entirety of their path is as if they are fictional players with historical snapshot starting points.

I'm also not sure of the effect of changing this mid sim as the db loads at league creation.

This is not always true. If you set potential to "peak seasons of career" or "entire career" Ruth will be spawned with excellent offensive potential and his initial pitching potential. The same is said for stamina and fielding, which can affect if someone is a reliever or starter and how many positions they have access too. Sure Chili Davis will be a catcher, but at least in my experience his outfield ratings are better then his catching ones. And Niekro and Hershiser can still start games and have started games in some of my sims. Recalc is definitely not the only reason Ruth can hit bombs in a historical sim

09-02-2023, 07:42 PM	#1
HonusWagner All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 521	Johnny Mostil got cancelled The game just cancelled my Allstar 2B, Johnny Mostil. Ranked 4th top 2B, 2x allstar at 2B. Then, at the end of this season, he is only available at CF. And am pretty certain during his 2B days he was not an anchor on the basepaths. How is it the game just switches available positions? Haven't seen this before. The ratings issue could pertain to discrepancies in scouting precision. But that doesn't seem to address the sudden position allocation. Attached Images

09-02-2023, 07:53 PM	#2
HonusWagner All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 521	nothing to see here folks! It turns out that IRL Mostil did switch to CF for most starts beginning in 1921, which is the next season is in my game. Attached Images Last edited by HonusWagner; 09-02-2023 at 07:55 PM.

09-02-2023, 08:39 PM	#3
LansdowneSt Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: From Duxbury, Mass residing Baltimore Posts: 7,537	Part of it is on the game set-up when the option to have single-season fielding, 3-year span fielding, or career fielding is selected. The greater the span, the slower the fade from a old position as a player moves around the diamond. Mentioning it just in case it impacts how you set up your next sim. Here's hoping there is a Free Agent 2B you like out there! __________________ Complete Universe Facegen Pack 2.0 (mine included) https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi...k_2.0.zip/file Just my Facegen Pack: https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi..._Pack.zip/file

09-03-2023, 04:45 PM	#8
LansdowneSt Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: From Duxbury, Mass residing Baltimore Posts: 7,537	This isn't a spoiler on how he played in the OF or how long his career lasted, but know that he was an OF in the minors too. He literally only played 2B for 10 games ever in his historic record (including minors) as a fill-in. If you are recalc'ing him against the historic record, the play in the sim at 2B doesn't matter upon reset of the calculation. That's all that happened. He recalc'ed to the actual historic record. Looking at his RL fielding, again without spoiling too much, everything that just happened is proper based on the settings selected. __________________ Complete Universe Facegen Pack 2.0 (mine included) https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi...k_2.0.zip/file Just my Facegen Pack: https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi..._Pack.zip/file

09-02-2023, 11:47 PM	#5
Rain King Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 3,122 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Mostil played 9 games at 2B in 1918 and 1 game in 1921. That's it for his entire career.

09-02-2023, 11:55 PM	#6
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	I think players who have established they can play a position should not lose that due to real life changes. If they stopped playing a position RL then in OOTP the ratings at that position should be subject to the effects of aging, not be knocked to zero. Pete Rose and Cesar Tovar played all over the diamond but when young players the moves had nothing to do with developing an inability to play a position.

09-03-2023, 04:29 PM	#7
HonusWagner All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 521	Yes, I am not quite following how a 2x allstar (at 2nd no less) can be switched to CF where he is scouted to play like a potato. Just to illustrate, wouldn't I, the GM behind the move, get input from my scout as to how he is likely to perform at the new position? So I mean from the scouting perspective, which I assume is not scouting accurately (scouting is set to normal). Not finding anything coherent there. Also, I agree the player in these cases retains his access to the previous positions he has experience in. With Mostil, I am already deep in CF. I don't need him there. So now the scenario reads that my team, of which I am the GM, just uselessly compounded depth at CF. Since this is a historical player I could peak into the player's RL stats and view how he's going to perform. I don't do that because I want to keep the number of ways OOTP is exploitable to a respectable minimum. However, had I done that I would not have been concerned about building up CF. So there's a few things here going on which disrupts gameplay.

09-03-2023, 05:27 PM	#9
HonusWagner All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 521	Fair enough from data perspective, but from gameplay perspective I was given the option to start him at 2B. The game provided that. I followed it, without knowing what RL stats contained. So while it is true to historical record, as you say, it makes for an abrupt playing experience.

09-03-2023, 05:36 PM	#10
MathBandit All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2021 Posts: 1,445	Pardon my ignorance since I don't generally play historical- but when you choose recalc in the set-up, aren't you specifically ensuring that abruptness for every player? Since no matter what happens to any player during the year, they will always snap back the new recalc values at the start of the next season?

09-05-2023, 03:39 PM	#16
CubsFan1967 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2023 Posts: 20	My stepdad grew up on the same street as Mostil lived on in Chicago. He would bring home balls, bats, and gloves for the kids in the neighborhood. Legend has it that he was so fast as a CF he would catch foul balls down the rightfield line.

09-05-2023, 04:55 PM	#18
Daniel_09 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2021 Location: Caracas Posts: 318	Most of the time I do historical simulations, what works best for me is for the base fielding ratings is to use Career, since he will have the ratings of both IF and OF that he had in his career, of course in many positions his current ratings will be low and can become higher over time (historical and minor league players). As mentioned in another post, historical season without recalc is a starting photo and from the next day it is somewhat fictional. For stamina pitchers I also use career, so that the stamina is adjusted to the majority of the pitcher's career, if it is Single season or 3 years ago is a short snapshot of reality, with some settings if you start a season in 1998 John Smoltz would have the stamina for a starter, if you start a season in 2000 he would have the stamina to be just a reliever. If you use career stamina is something in between.