Why not make all starters relievers?

[rbux]

I’ve played around with this over the years (I play out all my games) and have noticed that when I edit a starter and make him a reliever, his abilities go up, his stamina stays the same, and he is able to pitch as deep into a game as he was when he was a starter. I.E., he’s a better pitcher. And with a five man rotation, he’s always fresh for his next start. So my question is, other than for an “authenticity” reason, why not make all your starters relievers?

[Rain King]

His abilities go up only to reflect how he will perform in short relief. If you are using him as a starter he will still perform based on the ratings you saw when he was listed as a starter. You are only toggling which ratings display you see (SP or RP), not affecting the players' performance.

[Pelican]

By the same logic, you could make relievers starters. Their ratings will go down, and stamina could be an issue; but they may end up well above your existing SP. And we can’t say this is completely unrealistic, because John Smoltz and Randy Johnson exist. I basically have house rules to prevent this (and I don’t use “openers”), unless there is some special case, or a history in the making like Zack Eflin.

[rbux]

Originally Posted by Rain King

His abilities go up only to reflect how he will perform in short relief. If you are using him as a starter he will still perform based on the ratings you saw when he was listed as a starter. You are only toggling which ratings display you see (SP or RP), not affecting the players' performance.

The ratings displayed IS the players performance.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by rbux

The ratings displayed IS the players performance.

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

The ratings display based on the role for which you have the player listed. However, the player will perform using the ratings for the role you actually use them in.

You cannot game the system by changing a pitcher's role from SP to RP and then using them as a SP.

[damientheomen3]

Pitchers in OOTP tend to have their stuff go up when switched to reliever because for relievers the stuff attribute is weighted more towards their best 2 pitches. Back when OOTP rarely generated pitchers with more than 3 or 4 pitches this was a bit more prevalent.

[bigd51]

Originally Posted by Rain King

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

The ratings display based on the role for which you have the player listed. However, the player will perform using the ratings for the role you actually use them in.

You cannot game the system by changing a pitcher's role from SP to RP and then using them as a SP.

That's not what the OP is saying.

They're saying if you have two relievers w/ the exact same ratings, except one has 30 stamina while the other has 50+ stamina... then why would you use the one w/ 30 stamina over the one w/ 50+ when the reliever w/ 50+ will be able to pitch deeper?

It's well known that stamina has little effect when playing out games and even when simulating games (evidenced by the fact that minor league pitchers on AI teams routinely can log 140 pitches in a complete game shutout w/ 16 Ks)

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by Pelican

By the same logic, you could make relievers starters. Their ratings will go down, and stamina could be an issue; but they may end up well above your existing SP. And we can’t say this is completely unrealistic, because John Smoltz and Randy Johnson exist. I basically have house rules to prevent this (and I don’t use “openers”), unless there is some special case, or a history in the making like Zack Eflin.

The ability to start any pitcher in the game is realistic (all pitchers begin their baseball careers as starters).


Relievers with low-stamina (for example, <50 on a 20-80 scale), should get their stamina automatically bumped to 50 when they start a game. However, their stuff should drop in proportion to how much their stamina has to be bumped up. This reflects a pitcher downgrading his velocity in order to pitch deeper into a game. Therefore a 10 stamina pitcher could start in an emergency (with stamina=50), but he would be pretty ineffective since his stuff would be so poor. However, it would technically be possible.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by bigd51

That's not what the OP is saying.

They're saying if you have two relievers w/ the exact same ratings, except one has 30 stamina while the other has 50+ stamina... then why would you use the one w/ 30 stamina over the one w/ 50+ when the reliever w/ 50+ will be able to pitch deeper?

It's well known that stamina has little effect when playing out games and even when simulating games (evidenced by the fact that minor league pitchers on AI teams routinely can log 140 pitches in a complete game shutout w/ 16 Ks)

That isn't the way I'm reading it. He literally is saying in that OP that switching the role to "RP" is making the pitcher a better starter...but it is why I asked for further clarification.

[rbux]

That is exactly what I am saying. Take one of your starters and edit him to become a reliever and look at how his ratings go up, with no effect on stamina. Then start him as usual. I have experimented with this over hundreds of games and the starter with his new ratings, will perform better than he originally did. As a previous poster stated, I think this is a way to “game” the system

[Syd Thrift]

Now play him in a game. If he’s listed as a reliever, regardless of what his stamina says it is, he will throw fewer pitches before he’s gassed than if he’s a starter. The game does that to abstract out all the extra adjustments you need to make to start vs pitching in relief.

[Brad K]

In the post season I'll occasionally over rule the manager and start a RP. This is usually for a mediocre starter when the opposing lineup is stacked opposite hand and the RP is same hand. The RP as a starter generally is gone sometime in the third or fourth inning.

Due to the very specific circumstances required for this to be an option I've done it probably no more than half a dozen times in my OOTP career. I don't have enough of a sample to show its effective although its worked for me.

I doubt doing this on a regular basis and without specific advantageous circumstances is an advantage. It may not be an advantage even with specific advantageous circumstances despite my success.

[Bunktown Ballers]

Due to the lost of revenue I'm sure this will never happen but...teams having 5 HOF 100 starters then loaded the bullpen with 7-8 HOF 100 starters turned relievers shouldn't be allowed. I played in a league several times that it happened. This 1 teams had starters & starters turned into relievers both have final ERA's below 3.00 with relievers being 2.37 for year...That brings back history...right?


BB

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by rbux

That is exactly what I am saying. Take one of your starters and edit him to become a reliever and look at how his ratings go up, with no effect on stamina. Then start him as usual. I have experimented with this over hundreds of games and the starter with his new ratings, will perform better than he originally did. As a previous poster stated, I think this is a way to “game” the system

I've not actually experimented with this so cannot say for 100% certain, but the developers themselves have stated that this is not how the game works. Adjusting their role does not affect their performance. If they are being used as a starting pitcher they will be using their starting pitcher ratings. If they are being used as a reliever, they will use their relief pitcher ratings.

If you have non-anecdotal data that proves that wrong I would recommend posting that information in the bug forum.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Rain King

I've not actually experimented with this so cannot say for 100% certain, but the developers themselves have stated that this is not how the game works. Adjusting their role does not affect their performance. If they are being used as a starting pitcher they will be using their starting pitcher ratings. If they are being used as a reliever, they will use their relief pitcher ratings.

If you have non-anecdotal data that proves that wrong I would recommend posting that information in the bug forum.

My experience is that those players will play with those heightened ratings… for around 2 innings max, then they run out of gas.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

My experience is that those players will play with those heightened ratings… for around 2 innings max, then they run out of gas.

Ok, decided to actually test and am not seeing this at all.

Changed every member of the rotation to a RP and went through a turn. Every pitcher made it to a mid-90's pitch count without issue. Including a guy with 45 Stamina who went 7 innings allowing only 1 run.

https://www.screencast.com/t/u6kEc4vH

So, they seem to pitch to their role from a Stamina stand-point.

Whether they pitch to their Starter or Reliever ratings is much more difficult to discern based on a few games, but I seriously doubt that is happening as it would be easily exploitable and a rampant issue in online leagues.

[Reed]

I thought the OP must be wrong so decided to test it.
Started a quick start game using version 22 mlb 1994.
Picked Cardinals Bob Tewskbury (sp) as pitcher. Left his role as SP. Played game and watched the little stamina slider under his picture. Started to tire around 69 pitches and was tired around 105 pitches.
Restarted the quick start but changed his role to RP. His rating went up. Started game with him as the starter. Yes he tired at the same rate as before (69 and 105 pitches).
Apparently the OP is right.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by Reed

I thought the OP must be wrong so decided to test it.
Started a quick start game using version 22 mlb 1994.
Picked Cardinals Bob Tewskbury (sp) as pitcher. Left his role as SP. Played game and watched the little stamina slider under his picture. Started to tire around 69 pitches and was tired around 105 pitches.
Restarted the quick start but changed his role to RP. His rating went up. Started game with him as the starter. Yes he tired at the same rate as before (69 and 105 pitches).
Apparently the OP is right.

Why does this mean the OP is right?

They have changed the displayed ratings, but I don't think that proves anything based on how the player actually performs. They aren't using the player in the role they have displayed.

[Reed]

Originally Posted by Rain King

Why does this mean the OP is right?

They have changed the displayed ratings, but I don't think that proves anything based on how the player actually performs. They aren't using the player in the role they have displayed.

Well I did post it in the bug section so MAYBE we will get clarification.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by Reed

Well I did post it in the bug section so MAYBE we will get clarification.

Just an FYI, I couldn't find it in a search (this is a topic that just doesn't search well) but this is definitely something that has been clarified in the past.