OSU vs. UM

[skkrrt]

Well, that site didn't tell us a whole lot we didn't already know...

Basically: Big 10/SEC are the best conferences over the last 10 years, with an advantage to the SEC.

Big XII is the worst conference over the past 10 years, with the only team worth a damn were those Nebraska teams.

Pac 10 is weak

The Big 10 gets jobbed in the national championship voting (unless you really think in the last 20 years only 2 team have been NC caliber... )

My rankings of the conferences:
1) SEC: there falling though without Florida being a top power anymore....
2) Big 10: They *probabally* play the hardest in conference football (in terms of how the game is played, most teams are still run heavy and that takes its toll)


3) Big XII: Just because Oklahoma is in it...nebraska has its time too...

4) Pac 10: Again, 1 or 2 good teams a year....

5) Mac: There gettin better...

6) ACC: Should catapult to 3rd next year...


I think the thing about the Big 10 is, they just beat teams silly, STILL... thats why if you watch a lot of the bowl games you notice a lot of Big 10 wins, unless the dominate teams match dominate teams..then its even...But ill take the 4th Big 10 team over the 4th SEC/Pac 10/Big XII team anyday

[ey215]

Some more data from which you are welcome to form your own conclusions:

These are the records of the teams currently making up each conference against each conference from 1983-2002 (20 Years). There are some inconsitencies due to changes in conferences (i.e. Penn State, the Big East adding/subtracting teams, the ACC adding Florida State, etc.) but these records give us a pretty good sample size.

ACC
PAC 10 - 13-6-0 . 684
Big XII - 21-12-0 .636
Big East - 44-36-1 .549
Big 10 - 29-24-0 .547
SEC - 59-84-4 .415

Big East
Big XII - 24-20-0 .545
SEC - 35-34-3 .507
ACC - 62-70-2 .470
Big 10 - 31-37-1 .457
PAC 10 - 13-12-0 .433

Big 10
Big East - 38-19-0 .667
Big XII - 63-37-2 .627
ACC - 33-27-1 .549
PAC 10 - 54-65-2 .455
SEC - 23-41-1 .362

Big XII
Big East - 18-15-1 .544
PAC 10 - 61-53-0 .535
ACC - 15-18-0 .455
SEC - 25-34-1 .425
Big 10 - 36-68-2 .349

PAC 10
Big East - 12-9-0 .571
Big 10 - 62-58-2 .516
Big XII - 76-86-0 .469
ACC - 8-14-0 .364
SEC - 9-20-3 .328

SEC
Big 10 - 37-20-1 .647
PAC 10 - 17-9-3 .638
ACC - 94-64-5 .592
Big XII - 26-19-1 .512
Big East - 15-13-0 .520

Notre Dame (since Skipaway asked)
Big East - 19-6-0 .760
Pac 10 - 27-10-1 .724
Big 10 - 38-20-1 .653
Big XII - 9-5-0 . 643
SEC - 9-7-0 .562
ACC -5-4-0 .556

ACC Future Alignment
Big XII - 98-16-0 .704
Big East - 201-109-3 .647
PAC 10 - 23-15-0 .605
Big 10 - 42-36-0 .538
SEC - 82-93-4 .464

If anyone wants this over a different time frame than 20 years I'll be happy to supply it.

Now a couple of observations:

1. The SEC has a winning record against all 5 of the other BCS conferences. By far the best arguement for them being the top conference.
2. Over the last 20 years the teams that currently make up the ACC have done suprisingly well, with a winning record over all but the SEC. IF you take Florida State out of the equation they still maintain a winning record against all of the other conferences.
3. The Big East is the weakest conference (not really a surprise, until very recnetly it's been a mainly basketball conference.)
4. Surprisingly, over the last 20 years the teams that make up the Big 10 only have winning records against the Big XII and the ACC.
5. The Big XII did well against "weaker" conferences but has played particularly bad against the Big 10.
6. The PAC 10 Played well against the Big East (who didn't?), but surprisingly also hold a winning record over the Big 10 overall. An interesting point for those making the arguement that top to bottom the Big 10 has been a better conference.
7. The teams making up the ACC II, as I like to call the ACC's future alignment, have done well versus all conferences except the SEC.
8. Notre Dame, of course is a conference unto themselves.

My conference rankings for the past 20 years based on this data:

1. SEC
2. ACC
3. Pac 10
4. Big 10
5. Big XII
6. Big East

Now if we knocked this down to the last 10 years those rankings would certainly change.

I can break this data down by team, conference, future conference, however anyone would like further information to forumlate opinons.

How would anyone else rank the teams based on this data?

[skkrrt]

Can I get this graph for the last 10 years, 5 years and then last 5 years with only the top 5 teams from each conference, then last 10 years with only top 5 teams from each conference. when they play each other

because honestly, what Illinois, Indiana, Northwestern did vs LSU or USC really means didly squat..

[skkrrt]

Also there are far too many inconsistancies for this graph to mean anything:

EX: How can the ACC and Big 10 have winning records vs each other? How can the SEC and ACC have winning records vs each other...

this graph is utter crap.

[ey215]

Originally posted by skkrrt
Also there are far too many inconsistancies for this graph to mean anything:

EX: How can the ACC and Big 10 have winning records vs each other? How can the SEC and ACC have winning records vs each other...

this graph is utter crap.

Dude read the post.

The records are for the teams that currently make up the conferences against the other conferences for the last 20 years, not the conferences head-to-head each year. Hence Penn State's record against the ACC before 1993 is included in the Big-10's record, just as Florida State's record against the Big 10 before they joined the ACC is figured into the ACC's record.

The ACC doesn't have a winning record against the SEC.

[ey215]

Originally posted by skkrrt
Can I get this graph for the last 10 years, 5 years and then last 5 years with only the top 5 teams from each conference, then last 10 years with only top 5 teams from each conference. when they play each other

Name your top 5 teams in each conference and I'd be happy to post it. Better yet! Click here and you can do the sorting yourself.

because honestly, what Illinois, Indiana, Northwestern did vs LSU or USC really means didly squat..

I thought we had to look at the whole conference not just the top 1 or 2 teams? In addition, refresh my memory didn't Illinois win the Big 10 in 2001?

[ey215]

Better yet, to be fair we'll take Florida State and Penn State out of the equation.

Teams that make up the Big 10 vs:
ACC 25-30-1

Teams that make up the ACC vs:
Big 10 24-23-0

The ACC still has a winning record against the Big 10 without Florida State figured into the ACC's wins or losses.

[ey215]

The only two ACC teams with losing records against the Big Ten in the last 20 years:

Maryland and Virginia.

Even Wake Forrest and Duke have at least .500 records against the Big 10.

[ey215]

At the request of skkrrt the last 10 years:


ACC
PAC 10 - 8-3-0 .727
Big East - 35-30-0 .538
Big XII - 8-8-0 .500
Big 10 - 12-15-0 .444
SEC - 27-38-1 .417

Big East
SEC - 9-9-0 .500
ACC - 30-35-0 .462
Big XII - 10-14-0 .417
PAC 10 - 7-11-0 .389
Big 10 - 8-27-0 .229

Big 10
Big East - 27-8-0 .771
Big XII - 28-19-0 .596
ACC - 15-12-0 .556
PAC 10 - 30-28-2 .517
SEC - 12-20-0 .375

Big XII
Big East - 16-11-1 .589
SEC - 13-12-0 .520
ACC - 10-10-0 .500
PAC 10 - 23-24-0 .489
Big 10 - 20-29-0 .408

PAC 10
SEC - 5-3-0 .625
Big East - 11-7-0 .611
Big 10 - 28-30-2 .483
Big XII - 21-23-0 .477
ACC - 3-8-0 .273

SEC
Big 10 - 20-12-0 .625
ACC - 38-27-0 .583
Big XII - 11-10-0 .524
Big East - 9-9-0 .500
PAC 10 - 3-5-0 .375

Observations:

As I predicted, things have changed when looking over a shorter period of time. The SEC is still strong with .500 or better records head-to-head against everyone except the PAC 10. The Big 10 is much stronger latter half of the last 20 years. Interestingly, the addition of Florida State does not appear to have had the desired affect of making the ACC a better football conference. If anything it may have made recruiting harder for many of the teams in the ACC. That is probably a factor in the ACC's going after Miami.

My conference rankings for the last 10 years, based on this data:

1. SEC
2. Big Ten
3. Big XII
4. ACC
5. PAC 10
6. Big East

[skkrrt]

intresting things i've found
Michigan is the 4th winningest team in the last 5 years, behind Marshall (MAC), FSU (ACC) , K State (perrenial frauds).

The Big 10s top 6 teams: Iowa, Michigan, OSU, Purdue, Wisconsin, Penn State have a .600 plus winning percentage vs EVERY conference except the SEC, which they have a .389, due to Ohio States unfathinable 0-5 record.

Also note only 18 games were played between those 6 teams and the SEC, Wisconsin and Purdue have 1 loss to 0 wins, OSU has 5 loss's, 0 win..the rest have a .500 plus record. Also these games were ONLY Bowl games, which are esentially home games for these teams (based on the fact most of these are in the gulf region where they play).

These are the last 10 years.

Over the last 5 years, the percentage vs SEC jumps to .430.

[kingfc22]

Originally posted by skkrrt
Can I get this graph for the last 10 years, 5 years and then last 5 years with only the top 5 teams from each conference, then last 10 years with only top 5 teams from each conference. when they play each other

because honestly, what Illinois, Indiana, Northwestern did vs LSU or USC really means didly squat..

Great data Ey215. Clearly you have proven your point on which conference is best Top-to-Bottom. You must count what ALL teams do because they are have been good at some point in time and yes, Illinois and NW have had good teams in the last 10 years, so I do not see why skkrt just wants to remove them from the equation.

[ey215]

How did you get your rankings for the top 6 teams in the conference? This years standings or another method? Also, how do you figure Michigan has the 4th winningest team in the last 5 years?

Sorted by wins:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Rank  Team name  Winning Percentage  Games Won  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
1  Marshall        0.84615  55  
2  Miami-Florida 0.85484  53  
3  Florida State 0.79688  51    
4  Kansas State 0.78125  50   
5t Nebraska      0.75385  49    
5t Tennessee    0.77778  49    
5t Texas           0.76562  49    
5t Virginia Tech 0.79032  49   
9  Oklahoma     0.76190  48    
10t Boise State 0.75806  47    
10t Florida        0.74603  47    
10t Michigan     0.75806  47

Sorted by Winning Percentage:

Rank  Team name  Winning Percentage  Games Won

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
1  Miami-Florida  0.85484  53  
2  Marshall         0.84615  55  
3  Florida State  0.79688  51  
4  Virginia Tech  0.79032  49  
5  Kansas State 0.78125  50 
6  Tennessee    0.77778  49
7  South Florida 0.77273  17 
8  Texas            0.76562  49 
9  Oklahoma     0.76190  48  
10t Boise State 0.75806  47  
10t Michigan     0.75806  47

The teams in the Big 10 with the top 6 overall records over the last decade have been, OSU, Michigan, Michigan State, Wisconsion, Penn State, and Iowa.

When you use the top 6 according to record the teams have a .444 winning percentage against the SEC. They still maintain the .600 record against everyone else.

The SEC's top 6 teams by overall record are: Florida, Tennesse, Auburn, Alabama, Georgia, and LSU. When you use the top 6 SEC teams against the Big 10, they have a .647 winning percentage. They carry a losing record against the Pac 10 and Big XII.

I assume Your top 6 teams by conference record for the last 5 years in the Big 10 is your list.

By conference record in the last 5 years, Arkansas actually replaces LSU in the SEC. Those teams record against the Big 10 in the last 5 years is 3-6 for a .333 winning percentage.

Interestingly, the ACC's top 6 schools in the last 10 years (according to conference records) Clemson, North Carolina, NC State, FSU, Virginia, and Georgia Tech have a .500 or better record against all conferences, with the exception of the SEC.

The only difference between the 10 and 5 years in the ACC is Maryland replaces North Carolina. Those 6 teams in the last 5 years have a winning record against all conferences except the Big East.

The best conference records in the last 10 years in the Pac 10 belong to Washington, Oregon, UCLA, USC, Arizona, and ASU. Those teams over the same 10 years have winning records against the SEC and Big East.

In the last 5 years Oregon State and Stanford replace ASU and Arizona. The top 6 teams in the Pac-10 over the last 5 years carry a winning record against the SEC, the Big XII, and the Big Ten. Interstingly enough they were 4-0 against the SEC.

As for the Big XII, over the last 10 years the top 6 teams in conference play are: Nebraska, Colorado, Kansas State, Texas, Texas A&M, and Texas Tech. They carry a winning record against everyone except the Big Ten and ACC during that time frame.

The only change when going from 10 years to 5 years is Oklahoma replaces Texas Tech. Over the last 5 years the top 6 teams in the Big XII have a winning record against everyone except the Pac 10 and the Big 10.

Now the problem with comparing the top teams as we are now is that we are still putting in data that you say doesn't mean diddly, since this is the top 6 teams against the entire other conference. For this data to really matter we need to do top 6 against top 6.

Good stuff here though.

[ey215]

The last 5 years again at skkrrt's request:

ACC
PAC 10 - 5-1 .833
Big East - 18-16 .529
Big 10 - 7-7 .500
SEC - 17-17 .500
Big XII - 5-6 .455

Big East
SEC - 9-6 .600
PAC 10 - 5-5 .500
ACC - 16-18 .471
Big XII - 4-6 .400
Big 10 - 4-7 .369

Big 10
Big East - 7-4 .636
Big XII - 11-10 .524
PAC 10 - 14-14 .500
ACC - 7-7 .500
SEC - 8-10 .444

Big XII
Big East - 6-4 .600
ACC - 6-5 .545
SEC - 8-7 .533
PAC 10 - 13-15 .464
Big 10 - 10-11 .476

PAC 10
SEC - 4-0 1.000
Big XII - 15-13 .536
Big East - 5-5 .500
Big 10 - 14-14 .500
ACC - 1-5 .167

SEC
Big 10 - 10-8 .556
ACC - 17-17 .500
Big XII - 7-8 .467
Big East - 6-9 .400
PAC 10 - 0-4 .000

Some observations. I'm not going to lie I'm shocked at the turn around in some of the standings here. The ACC, Pac 10, and Big 10 all have .500 or better records against all of the other conferences except one. The Big XII has surpassed the SEC in record during this time frame and the Big East appears to have also. An arguement can be made for sample size but in the last 5 years my rankings are:

1. ACC
2. Big 10
3. Pac 10
4. Big XII
5. Big East
6. SEC

You can make a good arguement for either the ACC or the Big 10 at number one. The reason I went with the ACC is that while the Big 10 has a .500 record against the Pac 10 and ACC the ACC has an above .500 record against the Pac 10. That barely gives them the edge over the Big 10. Obiously that gives the Big 10 the same edge against the Pac 10. The Big XII has a winning record against 3 conferences including the Pac 10 and Big 10. The East edges out the SEC by having a winning head-to-head record.

All of these stats have brought me to one conclusion. I was wrong about the most underrated conference, I actually think as to head-to-head the ACC is very underrated.

[skkrrt]

I use top 6 because those are the "competitors" for the conference....every conference has 6 or so teams that are good for a decard, and 6 or so that are bad, the degree of badness is subject to change but I like to keep to the top tier since I doubt Indianas performace influces anyones yes on the big 10.

I sorted Michigan by the last 5 years as I said before.

So based on all these numbers we get that:
The Big 10 crush's eveyrone but the SEC
SEC beats everyone but Pac 10 and Big East
Big East and Pac 10 are beaten by Big 10
repeat:

So what we have learned here children:
Big 10 and SEC are tops

Big XII is a joke
Pac 10 is still overrated
ACC is actually worth a crap
The Big East is going to blow big without Miami

Oh and the SEC owns from 1980-1990, but the Big 10 owns from 1990-now (except in Bowl games vs SEC....)

[kingfc22]

The data for the past 5 years for the Pac-10 surprises me. I didn't think they had done as good as they actually had.

[marc]

All of this data is helpful, but I think to be 100% accurate there should be even more indepth research, for example what if by some fluke that most of the ACC's games against the Pac-10 matched up one of the top teams in ACC vs one of the bottom in the Pac-10, this would obviously skew things a bit and not make the ACC look as "dominant" over the Pac-10, and I use dominant for lack of a better word at 2 in the morning

[skkrrt]

Originally posted by marc
All of this data is helpful, but I think to be 100% accurate there should be even more indepth research, for example what if by some fluke that most of the ACC's games against the Pac-10 matched up one of the top teams in ACC vs one of the bottom in the Pac-10, this would obviously skew things a bit and not make the ACC look as "dominant" over the Pac-10, and I use dominant for lack of a better word at 2 in the morning

I agree, its hard to compare college football just my winning percentage like this, because when you have 117 teams there generally is a much larger drop in talent

But I did also learn the Pac 10 was a bit better in the last 5 years, but I dont remember them playing any tough out of conference road games...... it seems everyone they play from the SEC/Big 10/ Big 12/ ACC is at home....and the West Coast thing is a huge advantage....

oh btw the Big XII is still highly overrated Oklahoma, Nebraska and then ..... (perenial frauds Texas and K-State dont count)

[ey215]

Originally posted by skkrrt
I use top 6 because those are the "competitors" for the conference....every conference has 6 or so teams that are good for a decard, and 6 or so that are bad, the degree of badness is subject to change but I like to keep to the top tier since I doubt Indianas performace influces anyones yes on the big 10.

But you used the top 6 teams against the entire other conference. You've said yourself that it doesn't matter what a top team does against a bottom team in a conference. The only valid data in your numbers for the Big 10 are thier numbers head-to-head against the SEC because all of those games are top 6 SEC against top 6 Big 10.

I sorted Michigan by the last 5 years as I said before.

Those standings I posted above are the top winning teams in the last 5 seasons. (1998-2002). Michigan is number 10 in both sorts.

So based on all these numbers we get that:
The Big 10 crush's eveyrone but the SEC
SEC beats everyone but Pac 10 and Big East
Big East and Pac 10 are beaten by Big 10
repeat:

Actually since you are comparing top 6 against the entire other conference, what you get is the top 6 teams in the Big 10 dominate the bottom half or middle portion of the other leagues.

So what we have learned here children:
Big 10 and SEC are tops

Big XII is a joke
Pac 10 is still overrated
ACC is actually worth a crap
The Big East is going to blow big without Miami

Oh and the SEC owns from 1980-1990, but the Big 10 owns from 1990-now (except in Bowl games vs SEC....)

What we have really learned is that it is a matter of perspective. We've also learned that the ACC is vastly underrated, the bottom of the Big 10 is as bad as the bottom of any of the other conferences, that skkrrtt doesn't answer real questions as to how he makes his decisions about things just that he does, and that stats can be manipulated to show what anyone wants.

edit: We've also learned that I need to use the preview message button more.

[ey215]

Originally posted by marc
All of this data is helpful, but I think to be 100% accurate there should be even more indepth research, for example what if by some fluke that most of the ACC's games against the Pac-10 matched up one of the top teams in ACC vs one of the bottom in the Pac-10, this would obviously skew things a bit and not make the ACC look as "dominant" over the Pac-10, and I use dominant for lack of a better word at 2 in the morning

I'm going to run top 6 by conference schedule against top 6 in the other conferences today and see how they do.

[ey215]

Top 6 Teams by conference according to conference record (1998-2002):

Big Ten:
Michigan
Ohio State
Purdue
Penn State
Wisconsin
Illinois

SEC:
Florida
Tennessee
Georgia
Alabama
Auburn
Arkansas

Pac 10:
Oregon
Washington
USC
UCLA
Oregon State
Stanford

XII:
Texas
Kansas State
Oklahoma
Nebraska
Colorado
Texas A&M

ACC:
Florida State
Georgia Tech
Virginia
NC State
Clemson
Maryland

Big East:
Miami
Virginia Tech
Syracuse
West Virginia
Boston College
Pitt

Records of the top 6 in each conference against the top 6 in each other conference (1998-2002)

Big Ten:

Big XII 6-0
ACC 3-1
Big East 7-4
SEC 4-3
Pac 10 7-7

SEC:

ACC 9-9
Big Ten 3-4
Big East 4-6
Big XII 1-4
Pac 10 0-3

Pac 10:

SEC 3-0
Big XII 8-8
Big 10 7-7
Big East 2-4
ACC 0-2

Big XII:

SEC 4-1
Pac 10 8-8
Big East 2-3
ACC 1-2
Big 10 0-6

ACC:

Pac 10 2-0
Big XII 2-1
SEC 9-9
Big East 11-16
Big 10 1-3

Big East:

ACC 16-11
SEC 7-4
Pac 10 4-2
Big XII 3-2
Big 10 4-7

Some points on the above data, contrary to opinions around here the Pac 10/Big 10 matchups actually occured 7 at Big 10 school, 4 at Pac 10 schools, and 3 Neutral site games. Following the logic of the posters above since the Pac 10 is travelling they actually have a slight edge over the Big 10 even though the series is tied.

I will again point out that 5 years is really not sufficent sample size and by eliminating the other schools in these conferences we are accomplishing nothing but narrowing the sample size more.

Why do we insist on looking at only the top teams in the conference? The last I heard, Arizona, Indiana, LSU, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, Vanderbilt, Kansas, Baylor, South Carolina, Duke, Wake Forest, Northwestern, ASU, and California are ALL part of thier respective conferences. A conference is not only its top 6 teams over a time period but the entire conference.

Something else to remember on that point is by eliminating the bottom part of these conference we're not only eliminating the games that the top 6 beat the bottom parts but vice versa, games where a team in the bottom half of the conference beat one of the top 6 of the other conference (more impressive in my opinon.) I"m not talking about beating Illinois either. An examplie is that Ohio State has only played 2 games against the SEC in the last 5 season. Would anyone care to guess who they played and their record in those two games?

South Carolina, and they lost both games to them.

You can't just take teams out of conferences in order to compare the conferences. You must compare the conference top to bottom or the results are not really valid. These results don't state who the best conference is. They state who the best of the top 6 teams in each conference are.

Really the only conclusion that can be drawn from any of this is that if in one year, a team has managed to run the gauntlet that is any of the six BCS conferences, that they are one of the top teams in the country, regardless of what BCS conference they are in.

That being said, my rankings from this data:

1. Big Ten
2. Big East
3. ACC
4. Pac 10
5. Big XII
6. SEC

edit: Actually, it's not that I don't think these rankings do not have some purpose but I think you can't really rank the conferences by them. They do have some validity in dealing with situations where the results are close.