Ghostrunner on 2nd or 12-Inning Ties?

kq76 · 02-15-2023, 04:51 PM

Syd Thrift's post here got me wondering, which would most people prefer, the ghostrunner on 2nd (which is no longer on a trial basis) or 12-inning ties?

I hated the ghostrunner idea the first time I even heard of it. It's just so wrong. It's almost as bad as a home run derby, which was also thrown out there as an option. I understand various stakeholders want to shorten games and I'm okay with that, but I'd just much rather see ties after 12. Only about 1.5% of games go past 12 innings anyway so it wouldn't change the game nearly as much as the ghostrunner idea does. I'm still dumbfounded as to why they chose to go with such an abominable option in the first place. I think they just must have wanted to not only shorten those extra long games, but all extra-inning games.

We had a previous poll on when would you like to see ties, but I don't think we've actually had a poll comparing ties to the ghostrunners.

Boomcoach · 02-15-2023, 05:03 PM

I would be interested in data about how this affects the length of extra innings games, I am sure it is out there somewhere.

I didn't like the runner on 2nd when the concept was implemented, but I will admit I don't mind it in execution.

cephasjames · 02-15-2023, 06:02 PM

12 innings ties, hands down. I think that's less offensive to the purity of the game then ghost runners.

Déjà Bru · 02-15-2023, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boomcoach

I didn't like the runner on 2nd when the concept was implemented, but I will admit I don't mind it in execution.

This is pretty much my experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cephasjames

12 innings ties, hands down. I think that's less offensive to the purity of the game then ghost runners.

Yeah, but there is one big problem. John Q. Public and his girlfriend are never going to be happy with a game going that long and ending in a tie. Even if games could end tied after only nine innings, they would not like it. Most [casual] fans in any sport view a tie as a let-down.

pilight · 02-15-2023, 09:08 PM

I watch a lot of college softball so I'm accustomed to the additional base runner in extra innings. It's not so bad. I'd be OK with tie games. I'd be OK if they did both.

Cod · 02-15-2023, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boomcoach

I would be interested in data about how this affects the length of extra innings games, I am sure it is out there somewhere.

I didn't like the runner on 2nd when the concept was implemented, but I will admit I don't mind it in execution.

A SABR member did a probabilistic investigation on how the effect of the rule and released it in the Fall 2022 issue of the SABR Baseball Research Journal: https://sabr.org/journal/article/a-p...-innings-rule/

For baseball lovers, I highly recommend joining SABR. I can talk for hours about the benefits.

cephasjames · 02-15-2023, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

This is pretty much my experience.

Yeah, but there is one big problem. John Q. Public and his girlfriend are never going to be happy with a game going that long and ending in a tie. Even if games could end tied after only nine innings, they would not like it. Most [casual] fans in any sport view a tie as a let-down.

My wife is "John Q. Public."

She understands ties. She does not understand ghost runners.

Westheim · 02-15-2023, 10:37 PM

This choice is like picking between having an arm or a leg severed with a chainsaw. There's no wins to be had.

Brad K · 02-16-2023, 12:07 AM

There's not a choice for ties after nine. That's the real answer.

Why extend a game just to call it a tie anyway?

Why come up with some crazy method completely adverse to the rules of the game?

The point is the players want to go home after nine. Let them have their way.

Cod · 02-16-2023, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad K

There's not a choice for ties after nine. That's the real answer.

Why extend a game just to call it a tie anyway?

Why come up with some crazy method completely adverse to the rules of the game?

The point is the players want to go home after nine. Let them have their way.

I really like this idea, especially considering the number of games that are played in a season.

cephasjames · 02-16-2023, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad K

There's not a choice for ties after nine. That's the real answer.

Why extend a game just to call it a tie anyway?

Why come up with some crazy method completely adverse to the rules of the game?

The point is the players want to go home after nine. Let them have their way.

The only argument I have against a tie after 9 is that all American major sports offer some form of "overtime" to see if one or the other team can pull out a win. 3 overtime innings fits the multiples-of-3 format of baseball.

Déjà Bru · 02-16-2023, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cephasjames

The only argument I have against a tie after 9 is that all American major sports offer some form of "overtime" to see if one or the other team can pull out a win. 3 overtime innings fits the multiples-of-3 format of baseball.

My interest perked up with this. Yes, call them "Overtime Innings" — a mini-game for free! — and if that ends without a winner, tie game!

I still think the general public will not be happy, but baseball purists might prefer this over ghost runners, I can see.

Brad K · 02-16-2023, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cephasjames

The only argument I have against a tie after 9 is that all American major sports offer some form of "overtime" to see if one or the other team can pull out a win. 3 overtime innings fits the multiples-of-3 format of baseball.

Why have a solution that often won't solve the problem.

Brad K · 02-16-2023, 05:58 PM

Is it possible to add choices to the poll? It's appropriate to include the historical system as a choice (play until there's a winner no matter how long it takes) in addition to its a tie after nine as I previously suggested.

Antonin · 02-16-2023, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad K

Is it possible to add choices to the poll? It's appropriate to include the historical system as a choice (play until there's a winner no matter how long it takes) in addition to its a tie after nine as I previously suggested.

This would be nice.

As a "purist" I like the idea of playing until there is a winner, but in practice this can be less than fun for the fans. I remember years ago being at a minor league game and after the ninth inning we sat there hoping and hoping somebody would score a run...ANYBODY, even somebody from the opposing team.

Brad K · 02-16-2023, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antonin

This would be nice.

As a "purist" I like the idea of playing until there is a winner, but in practice this can be less than fun for the fans. I remember years ago being at a minor league game and after the ninth inning we sat there hoping and hoping somebody would score a run...ANYBODY, even somebody from the opposing team.

Nothing requires the fans to stay.

kq76 · 02-16-2023, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad K

Is it possible to add choices to the poll? It's appropriate to include the historical system as a choice (play until there's a winner no matter how long it takes) in addition to its a tie after nine as I previously suggested.

It is possible to add choices to a poll, but I wanted to know specifically, if people were forced to choose one or the other, which would they pick. You're welcome to start your own poll thread.

Brad K · 02-16-2023, 08:08 PM

That's probably a good idea since MLB only considers bad choices! LOL.

I don't want to step on someone else's active poll by creating a new one.

cephasjames · 02-16-2023, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad K

Why have a solution that often won't solve the problem.

The problem is the length of the typical game, not the length of games that only happen 8% of the time.

A tie after 12 merely addresses how to handle those 8% of the games that are tied after 9. Fans don't need to stay for the extra innings. As of 2017, 81% of games usually end by the 12th inning anyway. A tie after 12 would make that 100%.

kq76 · 02-16-2023, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cephasjames

As of 2017, 81% of games usually end by the 12th inning anyway. A tie after 12 would make that 100%.

Just to be clear, that 81% is of extra-inning games, not all games. I read that and thought, "there's absolutely no way that's correct".

Historically, only about 9% of MLB games go to extras. And after that about 45% of each end the next inning.

EDIT: Thanks to cephas' link, I looked back at the exact extra inning data from 2010-2019 (the runner on 2nd started in 2020). 8.75% of those games went to extras, 1.5% went past 12 innings.

View Poll Results: If you had to choose one or the other, which would you choose?
Ghostrunner on 2nd	12	36.36%
Ties after 12 Innings	21	63.64%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

02-15-2023, 04:51 PM	#1
kq76 Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 11,782	Ghostrunner on 2nd or 12-Inning Ties? Syd Thrift's post here got me wondering, which would most people prefer, the ghostrunner on 2nd (which is no longer on a trial basis) or 12-inning ties? I hated the ghostrunner idea the first time I even heard of it. It's just so wrong. It's almost as bad as a home run derby, which was also thrown out there as an option. I understand various stakeholders want to shorten games and I'm okay with that, but I'd just much rather see ties after 12. Only about 1.5% of games go past 12 innings anyway so it wouldn't change the game nearly as much as the ghostrunner idea does. I'm still dumbfounded as to why they chose to go with such an abominable option in the first place. I think they just must have wanted to not only shorten those extra long games, but all extra-inning games. We had a previous poll on when would you like to see ties, but I don't think we've actually had a poll comparing ties to the ghostrunners. __________________ My OOTP Wishlist \| My FAQ List OOTP Wiki \| Your Recommended Team Nicknames, By City (A Crowdsourced Project) Last edited by kq76; 02-17-2023 at 12:05 AM. Reason: changed 1% to 1.5% after looking at the exact #s from 2010-2019

02-15-2023, 05:03 PM	#2
Boomcoach All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 846	I would be interested in data about how this affects the length of extra innings games, I am sure it is out there somewhere. I didn't like the runner on 2nd when the concept was implemented, but I will admit I don't mind it in execution. __________________

02-15-2023, 06:02 PM	#3
cephasjames Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 8,736	12 innings ties, hands down. I think that's less offensive to the purity of the game then ghost runners. __________________ 5000+ Generic Logos Free for the Taking FREE: Uniforms and logos for 500+ teams spanning 1871-present Great Lakes League: 10 Conferences, 100 Teams Pre-OOTP 23 Custom Cap & Jersey Template v3.0 by Deft and NoPepper (with layers from other various artists) that I use: Caps, Jerseys

02-15-2023, 10:37 PM	#8
Westheim Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Germany Posts: 13,818	This choice is like picking between having an arm or a leg severed with a chainsaw. There's no wins to be had. __________________ Portland Raccoons, 92 years of excell-.... of baseball: Furballs here! 1983 * 1989 * 1991 * 1992 * 1993 * 1995 * 1996 * 2010 * 2017 * 2018 * 2019 * 2026 * 2028 * 2035 * 2037 * 2044 * 2045 * 2046 * 2047 * 2048 * 2051 * 2054 * 2055 * 2061 1 OSANAI : 2 POWELL : 7 NOMURA \| RAMOS : 8 REECE : 10 BROWN : 15 HALL : 27 FERNANDEZ : 28 CASAS : 31 CARMONA : 32 WEST : 39 TONER : 46 SAITO Resident Mets Cynic - The Mets from 1962 onwards, here.

02-15-2023, 09:08 PM	#5
pilight All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Where the Action is Posts: 1,995	I watch a lot of college softball so I'm accustomed to the additional base runner in extra innings. It's not so bad. I'd be OK with tie games. I'd be OK if they did both.

02-16-2023, 12:07 AM	#9
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	There's not a choice for ties after nine. That's the real answer. Why extend a game just to call it a tie anyway? Why come up with some crazy method completely adverse to the rules of the game? The point is the players want to go home after nine. Let them have their way.

02-16-2023, 05:58 PM	#14
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	Is it possible to add choices to the poll? It's appropriate to include the historical system as a choice (play until there's a winner no matter how long it takes) in addition to its a tie after nine as I previously suggested.

02-16-2023, 08:08 PM	#18
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	That's probably a good idea since MLB only considers bad choices! LOL. I don't want to step on someone else's active poll by creating a new one. Last edited by Brad K; 02-16-2023 at 08:10 PM.