2022-23 NFL Season Discussion Thread

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Sorry. But the fact that people like Oeswiler, Deshone Keizer, & Blaine Gabbert had NFL employment flies in the face of naive notion Kaepernick was not being blackballed.

I can guarantee that if guys like Osweiler, Keizer & Gabbert were hugely polarizing figures (and - regardless of whether you are in lock-step with Kaep on his social justice stances or not - he *is* very polarizing), they would not be employed as NFL QB's because those guys are a dime a dozen and a polarizing version of mediocre quarterback is not worth the hassle. If that, too, is blackballing, then fine. I just think it (not employing hugely polarizing mediocre players) is merely "unnecessary hassle avoidance."

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

And Flores did not shoot himself in the foot. HE STOOD UP FOR HIMSELF. It is not screwing yourself to defend yourself. That is where the notion of the "uppity negro" comes from. Just shuffle along & take whatever comes your way with submissive silence. Be seen, not heard. Not just bending over & enjoying the lay is the backbone of all civil rights advances. Whether it is based on race, gender, religion etc. If he wins or not, his courage to knowingly jeopardize his career so others will benefit is to be applauded and not colored as a bobbled snap.

I'm saying he shot himself in the foot by filing a lawsuit that is essentially only airing dirty laundry and not having any actual evidence of racism.

It would be like me filing an unfair labor practices lawsuit against my employer, claiming that they are not paying me for my actual hours worked, but my only actual "evidence" is that my boss is lazy, incompetent, and cheats on his wife.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by thehef

I get what you're saying, but my contention needs a little context:

2019, Flores' 1st season: Miami was expected to tank, with a roster that was built precisely for it. Flores, however, would have none of that. Despite a expected 0-7 start, as a team that was supposedly rebuilding they closed strong, going 5-4. So it's from that perspective that I say that Flores decent rookie year as head coach.

2020, Flores' 2nd season: Expectations were high that the Dolphins would contend for a playoff spot. They did. But that was in spite of a disappointing 1-3 start. And then, with a playoff birth on the line on the final Sunday of the regular season, the team didn't even show up in blowout loss (56-26) in Buffalo. True, there's no shame in losing a January game in Buffalo, but to get blown out like that? (And the contest was not even as close as the final score...) Although personally, this is when I soured on Flores, I'm thinking for most reasonable observers, the jury was still out: Too soon to tell if Flores is the guy or not...

2021, Flores 3rd season: With more talent, and young players a year older, expectations were again about reaching the playoffs. This time, though Flores' Dolphins sputtered out of the gate with a hugely disappointing 1-7 start. To Flores' credit, he was able to rally the team to seven straight wins and into wild card contention. But just like the previous year, when the playoffs were on the line, his team folded, getting throttled (34-3) against Tennessee and being eliminated from the playoffs.

Reasonable minds can disagree over whether Flores got a fair shot. If your contention is that given two back-to-back 10-win seasons, Flores deserved at least a 4th year, I've no issue at all with that... But if the angle is that he was dumped due to racism, I believe it's worth noting that his predecessor, Adam Gase, also got three years and was canned after an almost identical 3-year record (and the white coach before Gase - Joe Philbin - got 3 1/4 years before getting the axe... the white coach before Philbin - Tony Sparano - got 3 3/4 years... the white guy before Sparano - Cam Cameron - got one year...) In addition, there were reports that Flores did not get along with many of his players (and that he got along very well with others, causing rifts amongst the players), and that he clashed with both the owner and GM (who is black, btw).

So if you take race out of the equation and just look at the mediocre record with poor starts and late-season collapses; personality issues with players and - more-importantly - clashes with the owner and GM, his firing is pretty much run-of-the-mill. (And I reiterate that Flores' suit against the NFL and certain teams didn't really include any solid allegations of racism; rather, it was just contentions of buffoonery on the part of some front offices, plus the honest mistake of Belichick's phone call...)

What this does is show why it is so hard for change to happen. Cause no matter how damning the evidence is, people will look for ways to spin it so there appears to be a valid excuse. "Not necessarily, it could be......." is the way it goes. When looked in isolated cases that could hold true. When it is put together as a whole, then the picture is clear. Isolated cases becomes standard industry practice.

Time often lessens the pain from the first sting. So I encourage everyone to refresh themselves w/Flores' case. Judge for yourself. And I want you to keep in mind, the NFL is denying racial discrimination in a case where the evidence includes NFL officials own words admitting racial discrimination. This is Rick James denying getting mud on Eddie Murphy's couch, then telling us why he got mud on Eddie Murphy's couch.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by thehef

I can guarantee that if guys like Osweiler, Keizer & Gabbert were hugely polarizing figures (and - regardless of whether you are in lock-step with Kaep on his social justice stances or not - he *is* very polarizing), they would not be employed as NFL QB's because those guys are a dime a dozen and a polarizing version of mediocre quarterback is not worth the hassle. If that, too, is blackballing, then fine. I just think it (not employing hugely polarizing mediocre players) is merely "unnecessary hassle avoidance."



I'm saying he shot himself in the foot by filing a lawsuit that is essentially only airing dirty laundry and not having any actual evidence of racism.

It would be like me filing an unfair labor practices lawsuit against my employer, claiming that they are not paying me for my actual hours worked, but my only actual "evidence" is that my boss is lazy, incompetent, and cheats on his wife.

But as I said above, that is not what happened in his case. He is saying they discriminated by quoting them saying they discriminate. Look at the link. And he has proof the Giants had no intention of considering a black coach cause they had already decided who to hire before the interviews. Read the link.

[monkeyman576]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

What this does is show why it is so hard for change to happen. Cause no matter how damning the evidence is, people will look for ways to spin it so there appears to be a valid excuse. "Not necessarily, it could be......." is the way it goes. When looked in isolated cases that could hold true. When it is put together as a whole, then the picture is clear. Isolated cases becomes standard industry practice.

Time often lessens the pain from the first sting. So I encourage everyone to refresh themselves w/Flores' case. Judge for yourself. And I want you to keep in mind, the NFL is denying racial discrimination in a case where the evidence includes NFL officials own words admitting racial discrimination. This is Rick James denying getting mud on Eddie Murphy's couch, then telling us why he got mud on Eddie Murphy's couch.

I think it goes both ways, management tries to undermine things having racist undertones and minorities try to exxagerate things having racist overtones. When it comes down to he said/she said it can be difficult to prove sometimes.

[pilight]

I don't know what role race played in Flores getting fired by Miami. It's doubtful that the answer is "none".

I do know that NFL coaches getting fired immediately following multiple winning seasons is very rare. All the talking heads were very surprised when he was let go.

[monkeyman576]

Originally Posted by pilight

I don't know what role race played in Flores getting fired by Miami. It's doubtful that the answer is "none".

I do know that NFL coaches getting fired immediately following multiple winning seasons is very rare. All the talking heads were very surprised when he was let go.

Yeah I'm not saying it wasn't surprising but if you're going to accuse your employers of tanking and racism then it's hard to blame Miami for wanting to go in a different direction. A head coach is going to change the culture of a franchise by winning consistantly(more than 2 years) not by getting in a media legal war with the front office.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Sorry. But the fact that people like Oeswiler, Deshone Keizer, & Blaine Gabbert had NFL employment flies in the face of naive notion Kaepernick was not being blackballed.

And Flores did not shoot himself in the foot. HE STOOD UP FOR HIMSELF. It is not screwing yourself to defend yourself. That is where the notion of the "uppity negro" comes from. Just shuffle along & take whatever comes your way with submissive silence. Be seen, not heard. Not just bending over & enjoying the lay is the backbone of all civil rights advances. Whether it is based on race, gender, religion etc. If he wins or not, his courage to knowingly jeopardize his career so others will benefit is to be applauded and not colored as a bobbled snap.

This, exactly. No matter what the edgelords in here say, this is an issue.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by monkeyman576

I think it goes both ways, management tries to undermine things having racist undertones and minorities try to exxagerate things having racist overtones. When it comes down to he said/she said it can be difficult to prove sometimes.

Agreed.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

... Cause no matter how damning the evidence is...

Where is this "damning evidence" in Flores' situation? That the Giants had already decided who they wanted to hire is evidence of just that, and of having to follow-thru with the well-intentioned but flawed Rooney Rule. It is not evidence, per se, of discrimination that the Giants wanted Daboll over Flores and others... Flores' charges about Dolphins' owner Ross' tampering and tanking are evidence of Ross' buffoonery, sure. But racism?

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

... people will look for ways to spin it so there appears to be a valid excuse...

That goes both ways, my friend And so does the interpretation of what's spin, by the person doing the interpreting. I don't see the case that I presented as spin; just as pretty bullet-proof facts. You apparently see it differently. Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Time often lessens the pain from the first sting. So I encourage everyone to refresh themselves w/Flores' case. Judge for yourself. And I want you to keep in mind, the NFL is denying racial discrimination in a case where the evidence includes NFL officials own words admitting racial discrimination. This is Rick James denying getting mud on Eddie Murphy's couch, then telling us why he got mud on Eddie Murphy's couch.

If you, Flores, whomever, are/is contending that unintentional institutional racism occurs in the NFL, then I have no argument with that. I just don't see that Flores' case - highlighting knucklehead - but clearly not racist - behavior by front officers and owners - helps his cause. And then beyond that, his case is simply weak. His entire NFL coaching resume - his rise thru the Patriots ranks from scouting assistant at age 23, and to head coach of Miami and now sr. assistant coach with Pittsburgh - raises absolutely no red flags or even an eyebrow if he's a white dude.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

This, exactly. No matter what the edgelords in here say, this is an issue.

Call me an edgelord (had to look that up and can only assume you're referring to me...) if you like, while at the same time completely ignoring the facts

Either that, or show me how Flores was treated differently that his predecessor white Dolphin coaches.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by monkeyman576

I think it goes both ways, management tries to undermine things having racist undertones and minorities try to exxagerate things having racist overtones. When it comes down to he said/she said it can be difficult to prove sometimes.

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Agreed.

Yes, agreed

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by monkeyman576

Tanking should not be illegal in my opinion. Yeah it sucks for the fan, but it is a valid strategy and if sports leagues don't want it to happen the need all teams on an even playing field financially, which will never happen.

They could stop tanking with one swift move. Totally random draft order for all non playoff teams. That would end tanking overnight.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by pilight

I do know that NFL coaches getting fired immediately following multiple winning seasons is very rare. All the talking heads were very surprised when he was let go.

How many coaches get fired or forced out after winning two Super Bowls? That has to be a short list.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Sorry. But the fact that people like Oeswiler, Deshone Keizer, & Blaine Gabbert had NFL employment flies in the face of naive notion Kaepernick was not being blackballed.

And Flores did not shoot himself in the foot. HE STOOD UP FOR HIMSELF. It is not screwing yourself to defend yourself. That is where the notion of the "uppity negro" comes from. Just shuffle along & take whatever comes your way with submissive silence. Be seen, not heard. Not just bending over & enjoying the lay is the backbone of all civil rights advances. Whether it is based on race, gender, religion etc. If he wins or not, his courage to knowingly jeopardize his career so others will benefit is to be applauded and not colored as a bobbled snap.

I don't know about Flores, that's a different situation. But I know one thing for sure. If you're an outstanding quarterback, there is nothing you can do to get yourself blacklisted. No one wants a circus for an upgrade at backup QB.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by thehef

Where is this "damning evidence" in Flores' situation? That the Giants had already decided who they wanted to hire is evidence of just that, and of having to follow-thru with the well-intentioned but flawed Rooney Rule. It is not evidence, per se, of discrimination that the Giants wanted Daboll over Flores and others... Flores' charges about Dolphins' owner Ross' tampering and tanking are evidence of Ross' buffoonery, sure. But racism?



That goes both ways, my friend And so does the interpretation of what's spin, by the person doing the interpreting. I don't see the case that I presented as spin; just as pretty bullet-proof facts. You apparently see it differently. Fair enough.



If you, Flores, whomever, are/is contending that unintentional institutional racism occurs in the NFL, then I have no argument with that. I just don't see that Flores' case - highlighting knucklehead - but clearly not racist - behavior by front officers and owners - helps his cause. And then beyond that, his case is simply weak. His entire NFL coaching resume - his rise thru the Patriots ranks from scouting assistant at age 23, and to head coach of Miami and now sr. assistant coach with Pittsburgh - raises absolutely no red flags or even an eyebrow if he's a white dude.

Always an excuse. Always an excuse. Always an excuse.

I remember when Floyd was killed and commentators got all in front of microphones saying " I have to educate myself" about how institutional racism manifests itself in everyday life. You can take folks to class, but they have to want to learn. The teacher is at the blackboard. This is the class. Folks can take notes. Or they can continue to make excuses. And the excuses is why Tyre Nichols is no longer with us. We don't want to learn. We thus don't make changes. We just make excuses. Unless we see a white sheet we will make excuses. We will see the NFL admit Flores told the truth when he said he was encouraged to tamper w/Brady. We will admit Flores was truthful saying he was hired to tank. We will see screengrabs of his text messages w/Belichek. But somehow we say he was hallucinating about everything else. We see excuses.

"....and the band played on."
- The Temptations
Ball of Confusion

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

They could stop tanking with one swift move. Totally random draft order for all non playoff teams. That would end tanking overnight.

If I remember correctly, NBA still had tanking problems and had a random process. Which led to the Knicks getting Ewing and accusations of it being rigged.

The better solution to me is to base the order on the last 3 seasons W/L record. No one is tanking for 3 seasons.

But I don't think they will ever completely end tanking unless they put some $ into it. Namely, the better your record, the higher % of shared revenue you get. Owners won't give a flip about a better draft pick then

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

No one is tanking for 3 seasons.

The Sam Heinke era 76ers say hello

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

The Sam Heinke era 76ers say hello

They weren't attempting to tank 3 seasons. They were just failing for multiple seasons w/bad picks who couldn't stay healthy. "The Process" was just spin.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

We will see the NFL admit Flores told the truth when he said he was encouraged to tamper w/Brady. We will admit Flores was truthful saying he was hired to tank. We will see screengrabs of his text messages w/Belichek.

I don't doubt any of that. I also don't think it indicates racism. Neither tampering nor tanking are new, and I'm sure white coaches have been involved in it... I just don't see where Flores was discriminated against. Maybe his lawyers have more to come, evidence that actually points towards racism rather than some random NFL dirty laundry... And if he & his lawyers have real evidence and the hammer the NFL with it? Good for them...

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by thehef

I don't doubt any of that. I also don't think it indicates racism. Neither tampering nor tanking are new, and I'm sure white coaches have been involved in it... I just don't see where Flores was discriminated against. Maybe his lawyers have more to come, evidence that actually points towards racism rather than some random NFL dirty laundry... And if he & his lawyers have real evidence and the hammer the NFL with it? Good for them...

Hef. How would Flores prove to you he was discriminated against?