Very disappointing decision

[BaseballGOAT]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Indeed. I think what has annoyed people is that thye are now not allowed to mod the game to add certain things themselves. I don't personally care, because I play fictional leagues based in the US or England. But obviously I'm a minority on that lol

And nuking saved games was the big one for me

[BaseballGOAT]

Because openly talking about things like that make it harder for the situation to die down. Obviously whoever is on the other end of the legal threat, be it the ***, Konami or whoever... is going to be watching these forums to see how OOTP is cooperating

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

Here's what I'd like an answer to ASAP.

Let's say I'm playing a historical MLB league in 1976, no interest in Japanese baseball, its players or its teams. I'm importing real historical rookies. 1976 flips over to 1977, and does Randy Bass (a) import normally, no worries, (b) not import at all, or (c) import as some guy with a random name?

Similar question, but now I'm playing a present-day league. I'm in 2027 in my hypothetical sim and Jo Adell has become a solid contributor with the Angels. Meanwhile, let's say the real-life Adell signs with a Japanese baseball team. Is there any chance I get up one morning and Jo Adell in my game is scrambled into some other player?

I am trying to avoid being too hyperbolic here. I don't care about Japanese leagues personally. However, this intrusion into saved games feels pretty shocking. I am also not so sure OOTPD is on strong legal footing regarding its customers, but I don't practice that area of law so I don't want to get ahead of my skis.

I would imagine that it’s the legal department who exactly told them to do this. Mostly I don’t like the radio silence on this but *** and Konami are incredibly litigious, work out of a country that’s arguably even more insanely pro big business than the US, and have made FM do incredibly stupid things with Japanese football as well.

[FuzzyRussianHat]

I totally get how upset people are if they had a (redacted) heavy save that just got borked by the changes and the hamfisted-ness of how they changed saves is rough. But if the alternative is getting caught in litigation that could bankrupt the company, they don't really have another choice. Even if they had the financial ability to fight it, you could run into bad precedent if you lost. And as others have pointed out, there are larger companies with deeper pockets that decided that it wasn't worth the fight with other titles.

Plus, realistically what percentage of the people who play OOTP use (league redacted)? I'd guess a large chunk won't notice or would maybe be slightly disappointed that it is not in the background of the full world.

I'd be curious to see how things are implemented in OOTP 24 on if creating even fictional Japanese baseball runs into trouble or not. Or if the legal threats also impact the older versions of the game (which I don't think they'd have any way to realistically change like they did with 23)

Again, I feel bad for those who just lot a lot of time and energy and had their saves screwed up. But it's not like OOTP decided to do this randomly out of spite. I'm still on 22 and play fictional worlds anyway so I acknowledge I don't have the same investment as others on this thread.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Right, I understand that from OOTPD's perspective they have no choice due to whatever factors. I am just trying to find whether they, in implementing this fix, have created problems with (e.g.) Randy Bass and/or active players who began in MLB but then moved to Japan. Additionally, I want to know if this "fix" will scramble current big leaguers who move to Japan in the future.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Further, and separately, it appears they have made promises to customers that are now inoperative. Though the damages are far less, this is a similar problem to what they have with the actual license holder. And that's why you don't promise things that cannot legally be included in your game.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

Right, I understand that from OOTPD's perspective they have no choice due to whatever factors. I am just trying to find whether they, in implementing this fix, have created problems with (e.g.) Randy Bass and/or active players who began in MLB but then moved to Japan. Additionally, I want to know if this "fix" will scramble current big leaguers who move to Japan in the future.

Randy Bass is fine, it just shows that he played in the South African Baseball league from 83-88. Ichiro, Ohtani, and Suzuki are all fine, it just shows that they played in the South African Baseball league prior to the MLB. Fictional league/players all seem unaffected as long as they are legitimately fictional, and not either 'That' league, or a fictional version of 'That' league.

To use the MLB as an example, it looks like the MLB is out, and a 'fictional' league that has 30 teams in 8 divisions with 2 teams in NY, 2 in LA, etc would also be out, but any other truly fictional North American league would be fine.

[Syd Thrift]

I should clarify too that although I purchased the game via FastSpring and as such <redacted>, I’m really going to have to see how OOTPD handles saves before I purchase 24. I don’t really feel like having the <redacted> turning into <redacted country although oddly fitting considering the legacy of racism and fascism in both countries>, even if it is fictional. I get that Konami is a giant ass but we have to figure out the workarounds by then…

[hefalumps]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

Randy Bass is fine, it just shows that he played in the South African Baseball league from 83-88. Ichiro, Ohtani, and Suzuki are all fine, it just shows that they played in the South African Baseball league prior to the MLB. Fictional league/players all seem unaffected as long as they are legitimately fictional, and not either 'That' league, or a fictional version of 'That' league.

To use the MLB as an example, it looks like the MLB is out, and a 'fictional' league that has 30 teams in 8 divisions with 2 teams in NY, 2 in LA, etc would also be out, but any other truly fictional North American league would be fine.

Thanks for checking on this. That was one of my concerns.

But to build on the "Jo Adell" example, if I'm playing a *historical* MLB save and Gregory Polanco is supposed to debut in my universe, but because he's playing in Japan at present in real life, does that mean his name will get scrambled when he gets imported?

If so, is this a dynamic list that gets updated when players move on and off it? If Polanco moves back to MLB or retires, will I be able to change his name after that and have it stick?

Understand all the legal ramifications and that the devs can't really talk about it - but I think if they want anyone but casual fans of the game to buy future versions I think they're going to have to find a way to communicate exactly what they're doing to our save files - not so that we can figure out workarounds but so that we know what to expect and what to avoid so that we can make sure our leagues "comply" and aren't constantly getting scrambled.

If I have to play within a certain ruleset, fine - I may not like it at first, but I'll adapt and get used to it. But in order to do that, I need to understand what the ruleset is. I'm hoping at some point OOTP will be allowed to spell that out for us.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by hefalumps

But to build on the "Jo Adell" example, if I'm playing a *historical* MLB save and Gregory Polanco is supposed to debut in my universe, but because he's playing in Japan at present in real life, does that mean his name will get scrambled when he gets imported?

I don't follow present Japanese baseball (or really anything outside NA), but is there a current former-MLB player of note playing there now? If so let me know who.

[tehsuigi]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

I don't follow present Japanese baseball (or really anything outside NA), but is there a current former-MLB player of note playing there now? If so let me know who.

I do! Try Marwin Gonzalez, Gregory Polanco (as mentioned above by hefalumps), Willans Astudio, Maikel Franco, or Roberto Osuna.


Equally curious would be someone like Anthony Bass who started in MLB, went to Japan, then came back.

[LansdowneSt]

Originally Posted by hefalumps

Thanks for checking on this. That was one of my concerns.

But to build on the "Jo Adell" example, if I'm playing a *historical* MLB save and Gregory Polanco is supposed to debut in my universe, but because he's playing in Japan at present in real life, does that mean his name will get scrambled when he gets imported?

If so, is this a dynamic list that gets updated when players move on and off it? If Polanco moves back to MLB or retires, will I be able to change his name after that and have it stick?

Understand all the legal ramifications and that the devs can't really talk about it - but I think if they want anyone but casual fans of the game to buy future versions I think they're going to have to find a way to communicate exactly what they're doing to our save files - not so that we can figure out workarounds but so that we know what to expect and what to avoid so that we can make sure our leagues "comply" and aren't constantly getting scrambled.

If I have to play within a certain ruleset, fine - I may not like it at first, but I'll adapt and get used to it. But in order to do that, I need to understand what the ruleset is. I'm hoping at some point OOTP will be allowed to spell that out for us.

Polanco ought to be fine. If the scramble happened in a league where he was literally in the [redacted] league at that time, his being there scrambled him. But in the historical save, he's coming in as an MLB'er to the draft class or direct to the Pirates around 2014. So, there is a list of the debut 2014 MLB players with his name on it (like any other MLB name for that incoming class). The fact he later goes on to play overseas isn't an issue on that import. That's my understanding of how the game works in general WRT loading MLB players and debuts.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by tehsuigi

I do! Try Marwin Gonzalez, Gregory Polanco (as mentioned above by hefalumps), Willans Astudio, Maikel Franco, or Roberto Osuna.


Equally curious would be someone like Anthony Bass who started in MLB, went to Japan, then came back.

First thing I am checking is the recently-released full-world quickstart by CBLCardinals which contains all MLB roster moves up to 1/11.

Marwin Gonzalez is a FA. Polanco plays for the Cape Town Lynx. Willians Astudillo plays for the Cullinan Triplets. Maikel Franco is a FA. Osuna plays for the Mexico Diablos Rojos.

Bass in on the Jays but played in South Africa in 2016.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

Polanco ought to be fine. If the scramble happened in a league where he was literally in the [redacted] league at that time, his being there scrambled him. But in the historical save, he's coming in as an MLB'er to the draft class or direct to the Pirates around 2014. So, there is a list of the debut 2014 MLB players with his name on it (like any other MLB name for that incoming class). The fact he later goes on to play overseas isn't an issue on that import. That's my understanding of how the game works in general WRT loading MLB players and debuts.

So far all the former MLB-ers mentioned (even the ones scrambled to South Africa) are still in the game with their real names.

[hefalumps]

OK thanks for doing the research everyone.

So coyotedelmar, what happened to Michael Chavis on your save or some of the other guys you mentioned? Why were they scrambled or removed?

[hefalumps]

Just noticed we got another patch with additional tweaks - build 109. So all the tests people did with 108 will probably have to be done again to see if they added more restrictions or loosened things up a bit.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by hefalumps

Just noticed we got another patch with additional tweaks - build 109. So all the tests people did with 108 will probably have to be done again to see if they added more restrictions or loosened things up a bit.

I believe it’s actually at build 110

[hobbitrjw]

Ok IF there is a licensing issue with said league or Konami,then here is what I think we the players need to be checking on,and that is if save files can even legally be tampered with like this. If Konami had OOTP do this scrambling and it in itself is not legal,then Konami is libel for that,and should be also held criminally accounable for it.

I don't think this is a good thing at all,and my concern is how deep this scrambling goes into MLB history and players,if there are any bugs that could cause such scrambling to occur where it doesn't belong.

If there is no language within the software terms and conditions that says that OOTP can come in and mess with save game files,then it is a breach of T&C which any other parties involved in any potential litigation against OOTP would be equally as responsible for breaching by suggesting OOTP commit a action that is in breach of T&C to avoid a lawsuit.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by hobbitrjw

Ok IF there is a licensing issue with said league or Konami,then here is what I think we the players need to be checking on,and that is if save files can even legally be tampered with like this. If Konami had OOTP do this scrambling and it in itself is not legal,then Konami is libel for that,and should be also held criminally accounable for it.

I don't think this is a good thing at all,and my concern is how deep this scrambling goes into MLB history and players,if there are any bugs that could cause such scrambling to occur where it doesn't belong.

If there is no language within the software terms and conditions that says that OOTP can come in and mess with save game files,then it is a breach of T&C which any other parties involved in any potential litigation against OOTP would be equally as responsible for breaching by suggesting OOTP commit a action that is in breach of T&C to avoid a lawsuit.

Don't you think the legal counsel for OOTP and Com2US would have considered all of this before they released the patch?

[Chimaera]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

Don't you think the legal counsel for OOTP and Com2US would have considered all of this before they released the patch?

You would have thought OOTP/Com2US legal counsel would have prevented the team from putting [redacted league] in the game in the first place.