Is work ethic really that important in OOTP?

brotherblues · 01-12-2023, 06:14 PM

Or is this a fluke?

League leaders in FIP-
Min: 150 Innings

Palaaemon · 01-12-2023, 06:50 PM

Work ethic is absolutely important. It helps players to develop but it seems these players have already developed. Those are some pretty incredible starting pitchers you have there.

From the manual:

Work Ethic: How strong the player's work ethic is. Players with a strong work ethic can have a positive effect on other players in the clubhouse, and can influence player development. They are also somewhat less prone to slumps. Players with poor work ethic are also more prone to drug suspensions.

brotherblues · 01-12-2023, 07:00 PM

I have none of those guys, they're the guys who led my league in FIP-

Was odd to find so many bums developed into the best pitchers in the league.

mytreds · 01-13-2023, 12:35 AM

Because you’re using FIP- and only FIP- as your way of judging “good” from “bad”. Not to mention you’re also using a small sample size.

brotherblues · 01-13-2023, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mytreds

Because you’re using FIP- and only FIP- as your way of judging “good” from “bad”. Not to mention you’re also using a small sample size.

The point is they reached their full potential (and then some) in spite of having once been "low work ethic" prospects.

Agreed it's just one season in one league (and an online league at that), so the sample size is small.

Not something from which to draw conclusions. Just interesting.

Cole · 01-13-2023, 10:05 AM

Like anything, nothing is absolute. It would be pretty crappy if we knew with certainty that a player with low work ethic would never develop and a player with high work ethic always would. And that's not the case.

Just like in real life.. I'm sure there are plenty of players who had terrible work ethic, but were talented enough to carve out amazing careers. Likewise, those who had to work hard to hold on, or to develop themselves into all-stars.

Like all things, it's just one thing to consider. But certainly if you've got two near identical players, I'd feel much better about taking the better work ethic guy.

And I think if you see guys develop into stars out of nowhere in your league, you're much less likely to see that they will have poor work ethic/personalities.

Syd Thrift · 01-13-2023, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brotherblues

The point is they reached their full potential (and then some) in spite of having once been "low work ethic" prospects.

Agreed it's just one season in one league (and an online league at that), so the sample size is small.

Not something from which to draw conclusions. Just interesting.

Did you just sim a single season and look at the results? Yeah, WE will be random in that case because the game development engine hasn’t come in to influence things very much. Those players were surely created with their ratings at 100% of their potentials because that’s how new universes generate.

I’d recommend simming ahead 10 seasons or so and looking again.

brotherblues · 01-13-2023, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Did you just sim a single season and look at the results? Yeah, WE will be random in that case because the game development engine hasn’t come in to influence things very much. Those players were surely created with their ratings at 100% of their potentials because that’s how new universes generate.

I’d recommend simming ahead 10 seasons or so and looking again.

It's an online league about 30 seasons in. Those were all undeveloped prospects once.

MathBandit · 01-13-2023, 05:19 PM

Worth noting we don't actually know if they reached their peak unless you also have accurate scouting of them pre-dev.

brotherblues · 01-13-2023, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MathBandit

Worth noting we don't actually know if they reached their peak unless you also have accurate scouting of them pre-dev.

True. I'd say they still developed plenty though

locuspc · 01-13-2023, 08:22 PM

Do traits change over time? Maybe being an elite pitcher hurts your work ethic because you don't have to grind for success.

PSUColonel · 01-13-2023, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by locuspc

Do traits change over time? Maybe being an elite pitcher hurts your work ethic because you don't have to grind for success.

No they do not. I have an ongoing thread talking about this.

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=343222

locuspc · 01-13-2023, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

No they do not. I have an ongoing thread talking about this.

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=343222

Well, you're 100% wrong in that thread. Work Ethic might or might not be dynamic but Captain certainly is. You absolutely do see players that were previously not Captains becoming Captains and players that were Captains stop being Captains. Given that you're wrong about this I'm not too inclined to take your word as fact about Work Ethic either.

PSUColonel · 01-13-2023, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by locuspc

Well, you're 100% wrong in that thread. Work Ethic might or might not be dynamic but Captain certainly is. You absolutely do see players that were previously not Captains becoming Captains and players that were Captains stop being Captains. Given that you're wrong about this I'm not too inclined to take your word as fact about Work Ethic either.

I have not seen this. Hmm didn't realize...but if this is true and people don't realize that's an issue in and of itself I would think.

pauwoo · 01-13-2023, 09:44 PM

Here’s a short thread discussing how the captain designation can change… combination of traits and position classification seems to be the consensus: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...ht=Personality

PSUColonel · 01-13-2023, 10:35 PM

It's funny I didn't know this...but the point of that thread is more to do with dynamic personalities...I was just using captain as an example having no idea this happened...lol...I still think it's a static personality though...it's just that RP can't be captains...a pitcher either has to be a starter or a closer.

fredbeene · 01-18-2023, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by locuspc

Do traits change over time? Maybe being an elite pitcher hurts your work ethic because you don't have to grind for success.

Just run a report showing player traits over time....easy peasy...oh wait, we still can't run these reports?

01-12-2023, 06:14 PM	#1
brotherblues All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2020 Posts: 658	Is work ethic really that important in OOTP? Or is this a fluke? League leaders in FIP- Min: 150 Innings Attached Images

01-12-2023, 06:50 PM	#2
Palaaemon Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 263	Work ethic is absolutely important. It helps players to develop but it seems these players have already developed. Those are some pretty incredible starting pitchers you have there. From the manual: Work Ethic: How strong the player's work ethic is. Players with a strong work ethic can have a positive effect on other players in the clubhouse, and can influence player development. They are also somewhat less prone to slumps. Players with poor work ethic are also more prone to drug suspensions. __________________ I don't have to run faster than the bear, just faster than you.

01-13-2023, 12:35 AM	#4
mytreds All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2019 Posts: 1,117	Because you’re using FIP- and only FIP- as your way of judging “good” from “bad”. Not to mention you’re also using a small sample size. __________________ “Baseball isn’t statistics; it’s Joe DiMaggio rounding second.” “Once, centuries ago, it was the beloved national pastime of the Americas, Wesley. Abandoned by a society that prized fast food and faster games. Lost to impatience.” “ The term ‘WAR’ should be replaced by ‘WAG’. WAR isn’t an actual measurement; it’s just a wild-ass guess” -Bill James RIP National League 1876-2022 Floreat semper vel invita morte. I make custom ballparks.

01-13-2023, 09:44 PM	#15
pauwoo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Seattle Posts: 2,255	Here’s a short thread discussing how the captain designation can change… combination of traits and position classification seems to be the consensus: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...ht=Personality __________________ Be excellent to each other. the Portland Pioneers \| the Los Angeles Leopards

01-12-2023, 07:00 PM	#3
brotherblues All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2020 Posts: 658	I have none of those guys, they're the guys who led my league in FIP- Was odd to find so many bums developed into the best pitchers in the league.

01-13-2023, 10:05 AM	#6
Cole Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Fredericton, New Brunswick Posts: 2,685	Like anything, nothing is absolute. It would be pretty crappy if we knew with certainty that a player with low work ethic would never develop and a player with high work ethic always would. And that's not the case. Just like in real life.. I'm sure there are plenty of players who had terrible work ethic, but were talented enough to carve out amazing careers. Likewise, those who had to work hard to hold on, or to develop themselves into all-stars. Like all things, it's just one thing to consider. But certainly if you've got two near identical players, I'd feel much better about taking the better work ethic guy. And I think if you see guys develop into stars out of nowhere in your league, you're much less likely to see that they will have poor work ethic/personalities.

01-13-2023, 05:19 PM	#9
MathBandit All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2021 Posts: 1,445	Worth noting we don't actually know if they reached their peak unless you also have accurate scouting of them pre-dev.

01-13-2023, 08:22 PM	#11
locuspc Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2022 Posts: 298	Do traits change over time? Maybe being an elite pitcher hurts your work ethic because you don't have to grind for success.

01-13-2023, 10:35 PM	#16
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,094	It's funny I didn't know this...but the point of that thread is more to do with dynamic personalities...I was just using captain as an example having no idea this happened...lol...I still think it's a static personality though...it's just that RP can't be captains...a pitcher either has to be a starter or a closer.