2022-23 NFL Season Discussion Thread

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by thehef

There used to be a crowd noise rule...

I forgot about that. And forgot what happened to it.

[Cobra Mgr]

Tampa Bay put up one of the worst 2nd halves I have ever seen. It was probably the worst in franchise history and this is a team that lost their 1st 26 games of their existence.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

This is weird. But at one time, back in the 80s, the Dawg Pound area of Cleveland used to throw dog biscuits at the opposing team. Not just a few, but I saw a close up of actual biscuit rain on the entire Broncos team and Elway right before the snap. They played through it.

People are crazier now. When I 1st saw what was going on in Buffalo I told my buddies I can't believe the NFL is allowing this. No telling what some nut would hide in one of those projectiles.

[Cobra Mgr]

The stripes didn't give Washington one call in this game. Every break went the Giants way.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

The stripes didn't give Washington one call in this game. Every break went the Giants way.

And the receiver who didn't line up on the line of scrimmage... When you are the only receiver on that side of the formation, it's not difficult to realize that you must cover the tackle (by lining up on the line, as opposed to be lining up in the backfield). Certainly no guarantee that WFT converts the two-pointer and ties it up, let alone goes on to win, but that really dumb penalty was very costly...

Makes me wonder, though: What would be the harm - or significant outcome - in scrapping that rule? What if the rule, instead, was that the offense had to have five lineman on the LOS, but the other 6 guys could line up wherever they wanted, as long as they weren't offside?

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by thehef

And the receiver who didn't line up on the line of scrimmage... When you are the only receiver on that side of the formation, it's not difficult to realize that you must cover the tackle (by lining up on the line, as opposed to be lining up in the backfield). Certainly no guarantee that WFT converts the two-pointer and ties it up, let alone goes on to win, but that really dumb penalty was very costly...

Makes me wonder, though: What would be the harm - or significant outcome - in scrapping that rule? What if the rule, instead, was that the offense had to have five lineman on the LOS, but the other 6 guys could line up wherever they wanted, as long as they weren't offside?

What irks me on that play is that it is normal for the WR to ask the ref if he is on the LOS or not & the ref gives him that courtesy. So Samuel did just that and still got flagged? Before then, refs review whether Was was OOB, rule he wasn't so they mark it back & run the clock. Later, NYG takes a TO, they review again to see if this play the player got OOB & reverse it to give NY back their TO. Followed by the illegal formation, then the no call on the PI. Earlier, a Wash fumble recovery was reversed. Then a NYG fumble recovery is awarded on a play later. Then you have the 2 pt conv taken away on the pick

It looked like every time the refs stepped into this game they were screwing Washington.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

People are crazier now. When I 1st saw what was going on in Buffalo I told my buddies I can't believe the NFL is allowing this. No telling what some nut would hide in one of those projectiles.

lol no

Browns fans once threw not just dog biscuits but batteries. The reason we have paper and plastic cups in stadia is because people would commonly throw glass bottles onto the field when they were done with them (and sometimes when they weren’t). Basketball players going back to the 1920s, before there was an NBA but when there were teams like the Rens and the Original Celtics doing a lot of barnstorming were called “cagers” because they erected a cage around the court to keep the fans out. Philly famously cheered Michael Irvin suffering a career ending injury, but the Vet also rather famously had a jail and a working judge during games so they could sort through all of the public inebriation, vandalism, and assault charges that happened as a normal course of action throughout games.

And of course there’s all that crap that happened anyway, like Ty Cobb jumping into the stands to beat up a one armed man because said man kept calling him a racial expletive during a game, or hell, even Vernon Maxwell in the 90s jumping into the stands to go after a guy who decided that talking about the fact that his wife had recently had a miscarriage was fair game for “trash talk” and wouldn’t leave it alone. The Malice at the Palace, which was also caused by fans escalating a fight that almost but didn’t happen between Metta World Peace and Jermaine O’Neal, happened 20 years ago now.

Sports fans are waaay more sedate than they used to be quite frankly. I now live in a city that has a (largely undue) reputation for violence and even have season tickets to the basketball team. I’ve never once felt unsafe there, not the way people make out Comiskey or whatever to be unsafe (which, I’ve gone to games at Comiskey or Guaranteed Rate Field or whatever and never felt unsafe there either) or for that matter the way parts of the Kingdome legitimately did feel unsafe back in the day. And this is a good thing! I want to go to a game to have a good time, not to get into a fight with a stranger. And the safety also means I can toss some good natured insults around to visiting fans without having to worry about then taking things unreasonably, or security not being around if that happened.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

What irks me on that play is that it is normal for the WR to ask the ref if he is on the LOS or not & the ref gives him that courtesy. So Samuel did just that and still got flagged?

Ya, and Collinsworth mentioned that during the replay. However, it seemed like the WR asked the ref pretty much right before the ball was snapped, so it wasn't clear a) if he got an answer from the ref, b) if so, what that answer was, and/or c) if the WR even had time to make an adjustment *if* the ref said he wasn't on the LOS.

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Before then, refs review whether Was was OOB, rule he wasn't so they mark it back & run the clock. Later, NYG takes a TO, they review again to see if this play the player got OOB & reverse it to give NY back their TO. Followed by the illegal formation,...

Nothing seemed amiss to me in any of that. I mean, they made the incorrect call in both instances, and then replay review got it right, and the subsequent fixes were per the rules...

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

... then the no call on the PI...

I'm having trouble remembering the specifics, but between the games Saturday and Sunday, it seems like there were multiple instances of a) a pass being broken up, b) the replay showing the defender clearly committing pass interference in order to break up the play, and c) a knucklehead analyst praising the defender and/or criticizing the receiver, and making no mention of the PI. That stuff irks me... (Different sport, but in last season's playoffs clash between Boston & Milwaukee there was a play where Giannis took - literally - five-possibly-six steps after giving up his dribble to make spin move from the FT line to the hoop. During the replay, where the five-or-six steps were plain as day, Van Gundy couldn't have been more effusive in his praise of how awesome the move was, and was obviously oblivious to the travel... let alone the extent of the travel. Idiot.)

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by thehef

Ya, and Collinsworth mentioned that during the replay. However, it seemed like the WR asked the ref pretty much right before the ball was snapped, so it wasn't clear a) if he got an answer from the ref, b) if so, what that answer was, and/or c) if the WR even had time to make an adjustment *if* the ref said he wasn't on the LOS.

There was plenty of time before the snap.

Nothing seemed amiss to me in any of that. I mean, they made the incorrect call in both instances, and then replay review got it right, and the subsequent fixes were per the rules...

I thought nothing of them originally myself. Though from the start, and I've always felt, if in one frame the play seems dead & in one frame before or after the ball is loose, then whatever the call is from the start should stand. Replay is inconclusive. Cause you can't really clearly tell when the ball went from a state of possession to a state of being a loose ball. And that is what I saw on those 2 fumbles. So I thought it should be inconclusive, 'Play stands". But again, thought nothing of it till we got to the end and the NYG got every break. Then w/in that context I started thinking "hmmmmmm.........". Cause it is possible to make mistakes. But is it possible for 3,4, 5 mistakes to break one team's way?

I'm having trouble remembering the specifics, but between the games Saturday and Sunday, it seems like there were multiple instances of a) a pass being broken up, b) the replay showing the defender clearly committing pass interference in order to break up the play, and c) a knucklehead analyst praising the defender and/or criticizing the receiver, and making no mention of the PI. That stuff irks me... (Different sport, but in last season's playoffs clash between Boston & Milwaukee there was a play where Giannis took - literally - five-possibly-six steps after giving up his dribble to make spin move from the FT line to the hoop. During the replay, where the five-or-six steps were plain as day, Van Gundy couldn't have been more effusive in his praise of how awesome the move was, and was obviously oblivious to the travel... let alone the extent of the travel. Idiot.)

The officiating is getting so bad in every sport on every level that I lose my love of high level sports day by day.

[Déjà Bru]

Grab a look at the game-ending lateral play by which the Patriots snatched defeat from the jaws of tie-game/overtime.



https://twitter.com/Raiders/status/1...l-belichick%2F

EDIT: This writer implies that this was a called play? (And that Belichick did not distinguish himself in the post-game interview.) I have to do more research to see if other journalists think the same. It's hard to imagine any coach calling for something like this play. I thought it was impromptu.

[Cobra Mgr]

I love the way Belichek handles the media

[damientheomen3]

I can't wait for 2 weeks from now when everyone forgets that that happened and I get to see a Patriots fan mention the butt fumble again.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

There was plenty of time before the snap.

Yes, it appears so. But the ref didn't know that. And what we don't know is what - if anything - the ref said, and if the WR heard it. Just after the WR points to the ref (and presumably asks), he moves his front foot forward a bit. Perhaps that indicates that he then "thinks" he's good and maybe doesn't hear the refs response indicating he's not yet forward enough... Or maybe his pointing towards the ref was the only indication of the WR "asking." IOW, he didn't verbally ask and the ref didn't notice the pointing & therefore said nothing, and the WR interpreted that as him being on LOS... Was the WR asked about this play?

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

I thought nothing of them originally myself. Though from the start, and I've always felt, if in one frame the play seems dead & in one frame before or after the ball is loose, then whatever the call is from the start should stand. Replay is inconclusive. Cause you can't really clearly tell when the ball went from a state of possession to a state of being a loose ball. And that is what I saw on those 2 fumbles. So I thought it should be inconclusive, 'Play stands". But again, thought nothing of it till we got to the end and the NYG got every break. Then w/in that context I started thinking "hmmmmmm.........". Cause it is possible to make mistakes. But is it possible for 3,4, 5 mistakes to break one team's way?

I was referring to the two reviews within that last two minutes - one where the WFT TE was called out of bounds but the call was overturned, and the other where Heineke was called inbounds at the 1-yard line but upon review he was ruled OOB. Those reviews & their post-replay review outcomes seemed ok to me... I don't recall the fumble plays you mention. I think at that point the game was on but I hadn't yet dialed into it completely... But if those plays were overturned based upon shaky video evidence, well... referring to what I wrote below (and in a previous post), that only makes it worse!

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

The officiating is getting so bad in every sport on every level that I lose my love of high level sports day by day.

The non-calls on various PI plays this weekend were bad. I don't know that anything was as bad as replay not overturning the game-tying Raiders TD, where the receiver's second foot was clearly OOB... The sole REASON for replay review is to make sure that on key plays they get it right. An EPIC fail on this one...

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

What irks me on that play is that it is normal for the WR to ask the ref if he is on the LOS or not & the ref gives him that courtesy. So Samuel did just that and still got flagged? Before then, refs review whether Was was OOB, rule he wasn't so they mark it back & run the clock. Later, NYG takes a TO, they review again to see if this play the player got OOB & reverse it to give NY back their TO. Followed by the illegal formation, then the no call on the PI. Earlier, a Wash fumble recovery was reversed. Then a NYG fumble recovery is awarded on a play later. Then you have the 2 pt conv taken away on the pick

It looked like every time the refs stepped into this game they were screwing Washington.

I had money on Washington. Not a lot, just 10 bucks with a friend. But this was all on the WR.

Remember when you said the dumbest penalty is lining up in the neutral zone? This is not as dumb as that, but akin to it. There are yard markers. Refs are generous with this rule. He wasn't even close. The ref pointed, the WR he stepped up maybe a foot, not even. Refs give you one curtesy, that's it. The WR had to be able to see he was nowhere near the LOS.

[Ragnar]

I don't care if refs miss calls. There are going to be missed calls. I care about wrong calls. Calls refs basically made up or never happened. Those are the calls we can do without.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

... then the no call on the PI...

I happened to stumble upon a replay of this one, a shot of pretty much the whole interaction between receiver and defender. Absolutely PI or at least defensive holding. Terrible non-call. Whether it was an incompetent ref (or two, or three) that simply missed something so blatant, or refs pulling an "NBA job" by swallowing the whistle near the end of game, it was flat-out terrible. Redskins fans have a right to be furious on this one...

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

lol no

Browns fans once threw not just dog biscuits but batteries. The reason we have paper and plastic cups in stadia is because people would commonly throw glass bottles onto the field when they were done with them (and sometimes when they weren’t). Basketball players going back to the 1920s, before there was an NBA but when there were teams like the Rens and the Original Celtics doing a lot of barnstorming were called “cagers” because they erected a cage around the court to keep the fans out. Philly famously cheered Michael Irvin suffering a career ending injury, but the Vet also rather famously had a jail and a working judge during games so they could sort through all of the public inebriation, vandalism, and assault charges that happened as a normal course of action throughout games.

And of course there’s all that crap that happened anyway, like Ty Cobb jumping into the stands to beat up a one armed man because said man kept calling him a racial expletive during a game, or hell, even Vernon Maxwell in the 90s jumping into the stands to go after a guy who decided that talking about the fact that his wife had recently had a miscarriage was fair game for “trash talk” and wouldn’t leave it alone. The Malice at the Palace, which was also caused by fans escalating a fight that almost but didn’t happen between Metta World Peace and Jermaine O’Neal, happened 20 years ago now.

Sports fans are waaay more sedate than they used to be quite frankly. I now live in a city that has a (largely undue) reputation for violence and even have season tickets to the basketball team. I’ve never once felt unsafe there, not the way people make out Comiskey or whatever to be unsafe (which, I’ve gone to games at Comiskey or Guaranteed Rate Field or whatever and never felt unsafe there either) or for that matter the way parts of the Kingdome legitimately did feel unsafe back in the day. And this is a good thing! I want to go to a game to have a good time, not to get into a fight with a stranger. And the safety also means I can toss some good natured insults around to visiting fans without having to worry about then taking things unreasonably, or security not being around if that happened.

I was stationed in England from 1977-1980, near Ipswich. I loved soccer, and was appalled to see barbed wire separating the home and away fans. It was not at all unusual to see darts flying across the fence..and I saw one guy catch one in the face. My wife and I would drive down the motorway, and at all the petrol stations would be HUGE signs...NO BUSSES. These hooligans made Veteran Stadium in Philly look tame.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by thehef

Yes, it appears so. But the ref didn't know that. And what we don't know is what - if anything - the ref said, and if the WR heard it. Just after the WR points to the ref (and presumably asks), he moves his front foot forward a bit. Perhaps that indicates that he then "thinks" he's good and maybe doesn't hear the refs response indicating he's not yet forward enough... Or maybe his pointing towards the ref was the only indication of the WR "asking." IOW, he didn't verbally ask and the ref didn't notice the pointing & therefore said nothing, and the WR interpreted that as him being on LOS... Was the WR asked about this play?

https://twitter.com/i/status/1604705028719235072

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

https://twitter.com/i/status/1604705028719235072

Would love to hear the sideline zebra's explanation. I doubt we will, though, and therefore I can only chalk this up to some sort of misunderstanding, because the other alternatives - ref(s) out to get McLauren/WFT - are implausible, IMO... What's more irksome to me is the missed PI on the next play. That can ONLY be explained by poor refereeing, regardless if they missed it, or chose not to call it.

Back to the play in question... After looking at it again, McL is clearly not on the line of scrimmage, but also not so far off the line to be obviously in the backfield. I am not one who feels the game (any sport) should be called any differently in crunch time vs mid-game, however, given that this type call or non-call is often a gray area, and often inconsequential, then absent any other information (like that ref had already given McL a few warnings or something like that), I think that the penalty flag at that time of the game was the wrong call.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by thehef

Would love to hear the sideline zebra's explanation. I doubt we will, though, and therefore I can only chalk this up to some sort of misunderstanding, because the other alternatives - ref(s) out to get McLauren/WFT - are implausible, IMO... What's more irksome to me is the missed PI on the next play. That can ONLY be explained by poor refereeing, regardless if they missed it, or chose not to call it.

Back to the play in question... After looking at it again, McL is clearly not on the line of scrimmage, but also not so far off the line to be obviously in the backfield. I am not one who feels the game (any sport) should be called any differently in crunch time vs mid-game, however, given that this type call or non-call is often a gray area, and often inconsequential, then absent any other information (like that ref had already given McL a few warnings or something like that), I think that the penalty flag at that time of the game was the wrong call.

Here's a good commentary on the events from last night. It outlines why that call is so problematic. Even if you are in the camp that believes there is no fixing or manipulation involved, one has to acknowledge the referees' actions in this does the NFL no good. The only thing more important than not appearing to cheat is not cheating itself. At the very least, it looked like the refs set McLaurin up. And the NFL has to address that. Either allow the ref to help the WR when asked or don't allow it at all.