Late Season

Pelican · 12-08-2022, 05:30 PM

So, it's mid-September in 1971. The Pirates and the Orioles have long since clinched their Divisions. The Twins are close to clinching in the AL West. The Dodgers and Giants are tied atop the NL West, with the Cards two games behind. And a bunch of teams are eliminated from the Wild Card (two spots in each league). Rosters are expanded to 32 players.

For the teams that have clinched, and the teams that have been eliminated, it totally makes sense to play rookies and younger players from the expanded rosters. The veterans don't need to prove anything. The AI handles this well, giving lots of playing time to the newbies.

But for the teams still fighting for the playoffs, that logic does not apply. They absolutely need to put the best team on the field. So why is the AI starting marginal players all over the field? And why are untested pitchers getting a critical start, in the midst of the pennant race, when there are rested starters available? Who are these guys?

For that matter, what do I make of relievers with little stamina starting games for teams still in contention that have rested starters? What's that about? And FYI I have Openers toggled off, because I don't favor gimmicks like that.

The failure of the AI to manage teams competitively is disrupting the pennant race. I've been forced to intervene and set lineups and rotations. This is not an issue of fatigue or injury. It seems to be a failure to recognize the reality of a pennant race.

I am at a loss to know how to change this - other than by manually setting daily lineups and rotations for the competitive teams, a pain. I don't think there is any way to toggle the AI Manager to "win now". Why doesn't the AI have some sense of the standings, when I get messages on who has been eliminated, and the "pennant chase" analyzes the remaining games?

Thoughts?

Rain King · 12-09-2022, 01:28 AM

My current solution is just to disable expanded rosters.

jimmysthebestcop · 12-09-2022, 03:06 AM

Even win it now teams trade block postings boggle the mind. I don't the program detects pennant race at all anywhere in the program. If it does then it's certainly faulty.

Nothing like the richest team in 1st place trying to dump star players at deadline. So not surprising they can't manage rosters.

Plus bringing rookies up messes with there pro status for salary concerns. Teams dont bring up future stars in September unless it's an emergency and where established star is done for season and they need significant player for p layoffs

kq76 · 12-09-2022, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain King

My current solution is just to disable expanded rosters.

Same here. I'm not a fan of them anyway so it's no real loss to me, but maybe at the least consider decreasing it to like only 2 or 3 extra players.

MathBandit · 12-09-2022, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

Plus bringing rookies up messes with there pro status for salary concerns. Teams dont bring up future stars in September unless it's an emergency and where established star is done for season and they need significant player for p layoffs

I don't believe this is correct, especially if we're talking about years ago instead of today.

Took a look at many of the top prospects in the 80s and 90s:

* Cal Ripken - Called up for 23 games in Aug/Sep of 1981. Went on to win RoY and get MVP votes in 82

* ARod - Called up for 17 games as an 18-year old in 1994

* Mark McGwire - Called up for 18 games in Aug/Sept in 1986. Won RoY and finished 6th in MVP voting in 87

* Ron Kittle - Called up for 20 games in Sept/Oct in 1982. Won RoY in 83

* Steve Sax - Called up for 31 games in Aug/Sept in 1981. Won RoY in 82

* Dave Righetti - Called up for 3 starts (17 IP) in Sept in 1979. Won RoY 2 years later in 1981

* Fernando Valenzuela - Called up for 10 outings (17 IP) in Sept 1980. Won CY and RoY and came 5th in MVP in 81.

jimmysthebestcop · 12-09-2022, 07:47 AM

Yes I am only talking modern mlb finance setup since its a general forum and not the historical forum. or a made up league with super 2.

aka byrant

MathBandit · 12-09-2022, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

Yes I am only talking modern mlb finance setup since its a general forum and not the historical forum. or a made up league with super 2.

aka byrant

Isn't this discussion about 1971 though?

LansdowneSt · 12-09-2022, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kq76

Same here. I'm not a fan of them anyway so it's no real loss to me, but maybe at the least consider decreasing it to like only 2 or 3 extra players.

I think kq76 has the right solution for the OP's sim at the moment. If it's '71 with a 25-man roster, take it to 27 or 28 in expansion. The AI will do as it will with those extra spots and then reshuffle the depth charts accordingly but overall, I think this would make player usage more aligned with your expectations and better balancing the different needs of all the teams for where they are in the standings.

jimmysthebestcop · 12-09-2022, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MathBandit

Isn't this discussion about 1971 though?

Super 2 can still be enabled for the past as well as different qualifying offer cbas.

so who knows what settings he has

MathBandit · 12-09-2022, 11:43 AM

Yup. If OP is playing in the league that he told us he was in the OP, kg76 has a good solution.

If he's playing in a made-up mystery league different than what he said for unknown reasons, alternate solutions might work.

Rain King · 12-09-2022, 11:54 AM

Could you guys just get your own room, please?

jimmysthebestcop · 12-09-2022, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MathBandit

Yup. If OP is playing in the league that he told us he was in the OP, kg76 has a good solution.

If he's playing in a made-up mystery league different than what he said for unknown reasons, alternate solutions might work.

custom historical league super 2 is turned on by default.

do you even know how ootp works?

MathBandit · 12-09-2022, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain King

Could you guys just get your own room, please?

I was trying to help the OP in his stated scenario of 70s-era baseball with examples of players coming up and getting time in Aug/Sep. Apologies.

Pelican · 12-09-2022, 01:57 PM

OP is playing with 1971 rules, FWIW. Except, and maybe this confused the AI, I have two Wild Card teams in each league, thus four playoff teams in each league, and a Wild Card round before the LCS. That of course means more teams are in contention, at least in the NL. Oh, and the rosters increased all the way up to 32, leading to a real surplus of players.

The AI clearly "knows" in some sense there is a pennant race, because I am getting detailed reports on remaining schedule and "magic numbers". But this does not seem to carry over to the AI as manager of the contending teams.

I appreciate the suggestions to simply disable roster expansion in September entirely. I'm not a fan, normally, in that it makes little sense to pad the roster for the stretch run. (I did it in my sim as Phillies GM/Manager, because I could bring up Mike Schmidt and Jerry Martin and some over-achievers from the farm system, without having to cut anybody.)

Another idea I really like is expanded rosters to start the season, say through April, or through May (28 players instead of 25). This makes much more sense, as teams can have more depth (particularly pitchers) as things ramp up. Plus those last few roster cuts can await some MLB stats. This Spring roster expansion does not affect the pennant race. It does not generate issues of playoff roster eligibility.

MathBandit · 12-09-2022, 02:11 PM

One thing to consider if you move the expanded rosters to the beginning instead of the end is it could end up hurting bubble teams who misjudge how good they are. If a team that will go on to win 85 games and be in the WC hunt doesn't properly judge their talent, they might throw away what turn out to be crucial wins in April/May playing rookies in what they thought was a meaningless season for them - if that makes sense.

I do like the idea and think a lot of what you explained makes a ton of sense, but figured I'd throw in my 2c word of caution in case it inadvertently makes it worse.

Pelican · 12-09-2022, 03:12 PM

Yeah, that does make sense, and I hadn’t looked at it that way. It’s a lot easier to know where your team stands in September than in April or May. If you take too long to sort things out at the start, there may be no coming back. And it’s particularly true, the more Wild Card teams you have. Adding four teams to the playoffs in 1971 really changed the dynamic in the NL (though not in the AL). Pittsburgh is in, and on the way to winning 100 games. But LA, SF, and St. Louis are all in contention in the West (Cincy and St. Louis switched Divisions in my sim, based on simple geography…) The Mutts have the same record as the Cardinals. In theory, Philly, Atlanta, and Cincy have a 0.2% chance (one game for elimination) with fourteen games left. One of LA, SF, St.L, and NY will not make the playoffs. Cool.

Pelican · 12-12-2022, 09:38 AM

The one thing I can’t figure out is why the AI persists in starting RP with low stamina in a league with “Openers” toggled to “never”. This happens late in the year across several sims. It does not appear to be related to roster expansion. I’ve checked, and it is not caused by a lack of rested SP. Rotations are set up, and they are ignored. These spot starts are typically not guys who have a future as SP. They are RP with low innings and low stamina. Sometimes they pitch surprisingly well, but more often they get knocked around for a few innings, and it becomes a “bullpen game”. But a “bullpen game” should only occur out of desperation, when there is no rested SP available. This is not that.

Has anyone had a similar experience with this? I’m willing to accept it might be something in my settings or rosters or rotations; but I have no clue what that error might be.

Rain King · 12-12-2022, 01:23 PM

Is it possibly being done to make sure the best starting pitchers get lined up for the playoffs?

Pelican · 12-12-2022, 11:13 PM

No, I’m still in mid-September, and my season runs through October 7. Believe me, I could understand resting a SP who has thrown 200 innings (or 150 in today’s terms), but then in that case start one of the young SP you brought up from AAA, who at least has a chance to go five or six innings, based on stamina. A lot of these odd starts are going to veteran RP who have never been SP. It’s amazing they don’t get hurt, throwing fifty or sixty pitches with low stamina. Even closer to the playoffs, starting these RP would be foolish, because it becomes a bullpen game, and you risk going into the post-season with a tired bunch of RP. I can’t figure out what the AI logic is here.

12-08-2022, 05:30 PM	#1
Pelican Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: Wilmington, Delaware Posts: 3,228	Late Season So, it's mid-September in 1971. The Pirates and the Orioles have long since clinched their Divisions. The Twins are close to clinching in the AL West. The Dodgers and Giants are tied atop the NL West, with the Cards two games behind. And a bunch of teams are eliminated from the Wild Card (two spots in each league). Rosters are expanded to 32 players. For the teams that have clinched, and the teams that have been eliminated, it totally makes sense to play rookies and younger players from the expanded rosters. The veterans don't need to prove anything. The AI handles this well, giving lots of playing time to the newbies. But for the teams still fighting for the playoffs, that logic does not apply. They absolutely need to put the best team on the field. So why is the AI starting marginal players all over the field? And why are untested pitchers getting a critical start, in the midst of the pennant race, when there are rested starters available? Who are these guys? For that matter, what do I make of relievers with little stamina starting games for teams still in contention that have rested starters? What's that about? And FYI I have Openers toggled off, because I don't favor gimmicks like that. The failure of the AI to manage teams competitively is disrupting the pennant race. I've been forced to intervene and set lineups and rotations. This is not an issue of fatigue or injury. It seems to be a failure to recognize the reality of a pennant race. I am at a loss to know how to change this - other than by manually setting daily lineups and rotations for the competitive teams, a pain. I don't think there is any way to toggle the AI Manager to "win now". Why doesn't the AI have some sense of the standings, when I get messages on who has been eliminated, and the "pennant chase" analyzes the remaining games? Thoughts? __________________ Pelican OOTP 2020-? ”Hard to believe, Harry.” Last edited by Pelican; 12-08-2022 at 10:16 PM.

12-09-2022, 01:57 PM	#14
Pelican Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: Wilmington, Delaware Posts: 3,228	OP is playing with 1971 rules, FWIW. Except, and maybe this confused the AI, I have two Wild Card teams in each league, thus four playoff teams in each league, and a Wild Card round before the LCS. That of course means more teams are in contention, at least in the NL. Oh, and the rosters increased all the way up to 32, leading to a real surplus of players. The AI clearly "knows" in some sense there is a pennant race, because I am getting detailed reports on remaining schedule and "magic numbers". But this does not seem to carry over to the AI as manager of the contending teams. I appreciate the suggestions to simply disable roster expansion in September entirely. I'm not a fan, normally, in that it makes little sense to pad the roster for the stretch run. (I did it in my sim as Phillies GM/Manager, because I could bring up Mike Schmidt and Jerry Martin and some over-achievers from the farm system, without having to cut anybody.) Another idea I really like is expanded rosters to start the season, say through April, or through May (28 players instead of 25). This makes much more sense, as teams can have more depth (particularly pitchers) as things ramp up. Plus those last few roster cuts can await some MLB stats. This Spring roster expansion does not affect the pennant race. It does not generate issues of playoff roster eligibility. __________________ Pelican OOTP 2020-? ”Hard to believe, Harry.”

12-09-2022, 03:12 PM	#16
Pelican Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: Wilmington, Delaware Posts: 3,228	Yeah, that does make sense, and I hadn’t looked at it that way. It’s a lot easier to know where your team stands in September than in April or May. If you take too long to sort things out at the start, there may be no coming back. And it’s particularly true, the more Wild Card teams you have. Adding four teams to the playoffs in 1971 really changed the dynamic in the NL (though not in the AL). Pittsburgh is in, and on the way to winning 100 games. But LA, SF, and St. Louis are all in contention in the West (Cincy and St. Louis switched Divisions in my sim, based on simple geography…) The Mutts have the same record as the Cardinals. In theory, Philly, Atlanta, and Cincy have a 0.2% chance (one game for elimination) with fourteen games left. One of LA, SF, St.L, and NY will not make the playoffs. Cool. __________________ Pelican OOTP 2020-? ”Hard to believe, Harry.”

12-12-2022, 09:38 AM	#17
Pelican Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: Wilmington, Delaware Posts: 3,228	The one thing I can’t figure out is why the AI persists in starting RP with low stamina in a league with “Openers” toggled to “never”. This happens late in the year across several sims. It does not appear to be related to roster expansion. I’ve checked, and it is not caused by a lack of rested SP. Rotations are set up, and they are ignored. These spot starts are typically not guys who have a future as SP. They are RP with low innings and low stamina. Sometimes they pitch surprisingly well, but more often they get knocked around for a few innings, and it becomes a “bullpen game”. But a “bullpen game” should only occur out of desperation, when there is no rested SP available. This is not that. Has anyone had a similar experience with this? I’m willing to accept it might be something in my settings or rosters or rotations; but I have no clue what that error might be. __________________ Pelican OOTP 2020-? ”Hard to believe, Harry.”

12-12-2022, 11:13 PM	#19
Pelican Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: Wilmington, Delaware Posts: 3,228	No, I’m still in mid-September, and my season runs through October 7. Believe me, I could understand resting a SP who has thrown 200 innings (or 150 in today’s terms), but then in that case start one of the young SP you brought up from AAA, who at least has a chance to go five or six innings, based on stamina. A lot of these odd starts are going to veteran RP who have never been SP. It’s amazing they don’t get hurt, throwing fifty or sixty pitches with low stamina. Even closer to the playoffs, starting these RP would be foolish, because it becomes a bullpen game, and you risk going into the post-season with a tired bunch of RP. I can’t figure out what the AI logic is here. __________________ Pelican OOTP 2020-? ”Hard to believe, Harry.” Last edited by Pelican; 12-12-2022 at 11:14 PM.

12-09-2022, 01:28 AM	#2
Rain King Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 3,323	My current solution is just to disable expanded rosters.

12-09-2022, 03:06 AM	#3
jimmysthebestcop Banned Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 1,727 Infractions: 0/2 (5)	Even win it now teams trade block postings boggle the mind. I don't the program detects pennant race at all anywhere in the program. If it does then it's certainly faulty. Nothing like the richest team in 1st place trying to dump star players at deadline. So not surprising they can't manage rosters. Plus bringing rookies up messes with there pro status for salary concerns. Teams dont bring up future stars in September unless it's an emergency and where established star is done for season and they need significant player for p layoffs

12-09-2022, 07:47 AM	#6
jimmysthebestcop Banned Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 1,727 Infractions: 0/2 (5)	Yes I am only talking modern mlb finance setup since its a general forum and not the historical forum. or a made up league with super 2. aka byrant

12-09-2022, 11:43 AM	#10
MathBandit All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2021 Posts: 1,448	Yup. If OP is playing in the league that he told us he was in the OP, kg76 has a good solution. If he's playing in a made-up mystery league different than what he said for unknown reasons, alternate solutions might work.

12-09-2022, 11:54 AM	#11
Rain King Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 3,323	Could you guys just get your own room, please?

12-09-2022, 02:11 PM	#15
MathBandit All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2021 Posts: 1,448	One thing to consider if you move the expanded rosters to the beginning instead of the end is it could end up hurting bubble teams who misjudge how good they are. If a team that will go on to win 85 games and be in the WC hunt doesn't properly judge their talent, they might throw away what turn out to be crucial wins in April/May playing rookies in what they thought was a meaningless season for them - if that makes sense. I do like the idea and think a lot of what you explained makes a ton of sense, but figured I'd throw in my 2c word of caution in case it inadvertently makes it worse.

12-12-2022, 01:23 PM	#18
Rain King Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 3,323	Is it possibly being done to make sure the best starting pitchers get lined up for the playoffs?