Takes you out of the moment

[DJ_Jak_32]

Originally Posted by dcordash

Cubs/Diaz lost every single one of the 4 he choked in. They were walk off losses. I don't believe Diaz blowing up was just screwed up stat-gen. I believe it was collateral damage from a game engine assuring the player's team lose. Not out of spite or anything like that. It's to keep people engaged. Customers don't stay engaged when they win every game...or run away with a season..or the opposite. It's that middle ground..which OOTP, IMO, manipulates somewhat.

You sound more and more ridiculous every time you post this. The game is not written to make sure you lose games.....Matt has said this already but you still refuse to accept it. Closers lose it.....there are countless examples in real life that show you a guy can go form unhittable to a gas can and then reclaim it. But since you quit because the game did not go your way, we will never know if Diaz was able to find it again.

[Syd Thrift]

My favorite part of this "argument" is that dude is whinging that a guy who IRL went from good to awful and back to good over the course of one single year is being volatile for him and therefore game chet. The lack of self-awareness, it is like mwah.

[dcordash]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

My favorite part of this "argument" is that dude is whinging that a guy who IRL went from good to awful and back to good over the course of one single year is being volatile for him and therefore game chet. The lack of self-awareness, it is like mwah.

I believe myself to be about as self aware as the next cat. It's a very rare thing for folks to be self-aware though..did ya know that?

An egghead named Eurich did a pretty thorough study of the trait..95% of folks believe themselves to be self aware. Only about 10% actually are.

Hey, I know you all like to jump on the minutia of my Diaz hang-up, take it out of context and give all these examples you can run down to say. "hey dumb non-self-aware customer..this happens all the time in real life. You therefore have no credence to offer any opinions on this here forum. Those you do throw out will get poo-pood.".

Even though in my original thread I mentioned Diaz as the "final straw" of a culmination of many.

Look up the word microcosm when you go back and revisit self-aware. Diaz example is a microcosm of all that has been my experience with OOTP.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by dcordash

I believe myself to be about as self aware as the next cat. It's a very rare thing for folks to be self-aware though..did ya know that?

An egghead named Eurich did a pretty thorough study of the trait..95% of folks believe themselves to be self aware. Only about 10% actually are.

Hey, I know you all like to jump on the minutia of my Diaz hang-up, take it out of context and give all these examples you can run down to say. "hey dumb non-self-aware customer..this happens all the time in real life. You therefore have no credence to offer any opinions on this here forum. Those you do throw out will get poo-pood.".

Even though in my original thread I mentioned Diaz as the "final straw" of a culmination of many.

Look up the word microcosm when you go back and revisit self-aware. Diaz example is a microcosm of all that has been my experience with OOTP.

Your Diaz "example" is the epitome of the confirmation bias you constantly display in this thread. Epitome means "example of the average". See how words work?

A lawyer friend talking about something completely unrelated the other day told me "when you see hoofprints, assume horses, not zebras". Zebras here would be this idea that the game is "fixing results" in a randomized game. They have a game engine. They didn't write a special dcordash double engine. They don't have a special anti-dcordash modifier that only clicks in for dcordash while other players find the AI to be too easy to exploit and have to add extra handicaps to their play in order to not just win every year (or every other year since this is baseball after all). It's patently ridiculous and if you weren't so personally invested in doubling down on this, you would surely be able to see that.

[dcordash]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Your Diaz "example" is the epitome of the confirmation bias you constantly display in this thread. Epitome means "example of the average". See how words work?

Nothing I've said takes on the definition of "confirmation bias".

I presume the code behind this game is using a lot of techniques other than straight up stats based on it's own rating system and attributes. The cause and effect of any/every setting in this game (from what I've read in these here posts) creates a game platform that is slippier than a greased pig; void of traction.

By my suggesting it could even be based somewhat on a desired win/loss component to keep the customer more engaged isn't "confirmation bias".

I know some developer out here said it's not in any-way-shape-or-form factored by win/loss, but what if he doesn't remember? Or, heaven forbid, he doesn't want to admit because, well, that would be a little devious and contrary to a statistical engine.

It's taking all the other double-talk out here, all the other zillion and one settings that, evidentially, work in conjunction and can potentially produce any result varying from good to no effect at all. The suggestions I see out here ya'll are suggesting to customers are often appallingly counterintuitive.

Counterintuitive is not what you want in any product . But especially a product that has no underlying documentation. But, hey, we're packaging zero intuition along with the absence of documentation so you should be ok. Trust us, we'll tell you how it's supposed to work on this marketing forum.

The suggestions there is no documentation to reference..and by far WORSE, no one remembers how the game works to create documentation. What customer would that instill a good feeling in? Not me. Leads me to believe I could be right if no one remembers (still freaks me out) exactly how it is all supposed to work.

But to say it's "confirmation bias" is no different than me suggesting the gatekeepers of the game are suffering from some chronic gaslighting.

They don't know entirely what the game is supposed to do (I've read this in print), but are more than happy to attempt to bury any customer that drops in and suggests a flaw.

I started civilly about a week ago, but as things progressed and I kept reading the insinuations that I was wrong because "We don't really remember what all the settings do, but you are wrong suggesting there could be a spin-a-win/loss factor somewhere". Now I feel like a dog with a bone. If you want to spin that as "confirmation bias" feel free, but if I were monitoring from a mile high I would think:

...the one dude has a gripe about the game that may or may not have any legs...all the other dudes appear to be, maybe, going out of their way to shut him down. But, at the same time dropping posts that suggest they don't know what the hell the game is really supposed to do and have no documentation to reference. The other dude just won't let it drop 'cause I think they pushed his buttons..now it's going around and around. "No good guys..no bad guys..they just disagree" would be my mile high assessment.

Marketers (the seedier ones and ones that are faking it until they make it) are notorious about gaslighting their products.

I don't think ppl on here are intentionally gaslighting this product though. I'm pretty sure it's simple confabulation and, for the most part, epistemically innocent.

Suggesting confabulation on my part is much more civil than you laying the worn out and very lazy "confirmation bias" moniker on me..what's next "conspiracy theorist"? A pretty popular label those without an argument they can prove, like to use.

[robc]

I don't post much any more since I don't play much but this thread has gone in really weird places. Lets do some basic math and probabilities...

Let's say a player hits 30 HRs in 600 ABs in real life (a 5% chance to hit a HR).
Let's say a game uses that probability to generate ratings or results to try and match that output in the game.

Using probability and standard deviations, that player in OOTP should hit between 25-35 HRs in 600 AB 68% of the time, and hit 20-40 HRs 95% of the time. That is a pretty big variance.

For batting average, a player hitting .300 in 600 ABs should hit between .282 - .318 68% of the time, and hit between .263-.337 90% of the time. Again, a pretty big variance. That still leaves 10% of the players to fall outside that range.

If you look at even a smaller sample, say how that player who hit .300 in real life performs in OOTP over 100 ABs, the expected variance is even greater. They should hit between .250 - .350 68% of the time, and hit between .210-.390 90% of the time. So the odds of them hitting below .200 over over .400 in 100 ABs is probably a bit less than 10%.

You can imagine how great the variance can be over 5 games, which I think one of the complaints is about. So yeah, someone with reasonable expectations should not think it is crazy when they see how a player performs in OOTP vs real life. There can be a wide variance and still be within the expected values. When I did experiments on OOTP maybe 10-15 years ago, Markus used my data to find some holes where OOTP could be improved because he was interested in OOTP producing as good results as he possibly could. When I had actual data to back up my claims he listened. It drives me nuts when people make off the wall complaints about OOTP without using any math / statistics to show why there is an issue.

PS - My experiments included counting how may players were within 1 standard deviation, 2 deviations and 3 deviations for many statistics categories. OOTP was actually pretty good, especially considering that the players in OOTP really aren't in identical situations as that player was in real life. If can get pretty close if you use real line ups and transaction, etc... If you have injuries turned on or other things that will affect a player's ratings then you can expect even more possibilities for variance.

[BaseballGOAT]

Originally Posted by dcordash

It's things like this that constantly remind you the "simulation" part of this game often misses the mark. This may not be the hugest example, but it's one to add to all the other head-shakers. And why you just start to question all elements of the game. How much is just arbitrary..and how much really (I mean really) is based entirely on a statistical model.

I made this trade from my Cubs team to sorta mimic what is likely to happen. Part of the fun of the game. But, it ain't fun when you see ridiculous results. Just reminds you this game needs a lot of work in, at least, some areas.

In the first place, I'm sure the Dodgers wouldn't have given up Gonsolin with his 11-0 record straight up for Contreras. But they threw in Caleb Ferguson (who has been lights out as a reliever for the Cubs MLB team) as well. However, I can overlook this..AI just can't nail it all. Bad trades happen.

But to give up the talent the Dodgers did for Contreras and then demote him to Triple A 100 or so AB's later is ridiculous. And, why I give up on this game every year and quit playing.

What's more ridiculous? I keep buying this game every year with high expectations. You know the definition of insanity.....

https://twitter.com/AshDcord/status/1552420969708412928

I'm just gonna comment on the original complaint of the trade and not wade into the mess this topic has become,
I'm not bothered by the Dodgers AI trading Gonsolin. The Ai sees his entire body of work over just the current season numbers. That team is also very stacked when it comes to pitching. So if the Ai felt it needed Contreras, then it's got two choices... to deal from its strengths or its prospect pool and since it was a deal originating from the OP that choice was taken away since the trade Ai will either accept or deny and not do a counter offer. And for the minor league issue with Contreras, we've already established that was bs.

[dcordash]

Originally Posted by BaseballGOAT

I'm just gonna comment on the original complaint of the trade and not wade into the mess this topic has become,
I'm not bothered by the Dodgers AI trading Gonsolin. The Ai sees his entire body of work over just the current season numbers. That team is also very stacked when it comes to pitching. So if the Ai felt it needed Contreras, then it's got two choices... to deal from its strengths or its prospect pool and since it was a deal originating from the OP that choice was taken away since the trade Ai will either accept or deny and not do a counter offer. And for the minor league issue with Contreras, we've already established that was bs.

Just a couple takeaways from this post. Yeah, this thread has gotten off on some tangents. I've always attempted to keep it on track with the theme of the post in general..things that "take you out of the game".

This turned into all sorts of different replies and me (in my defense) trying to defend in totality what the gist of my subject line read. Yep it has gotten lengthy, but I'm still defending my initial statement. Just evolved from the Contreras trade..which it should of..to encompass all the other things that lead to my personal decision to shelf the game for the year.

Wasn't just this trade and everything that logically and realistically wouldn't have happened. And we all know it. Anyone with an agenda can create a rationale that it was perfectly normal..but it wasn't. But, that's beside the point.

This trade, amigo, was initiated with me using the good 'ol "shop player around" tool. Some of the offers were just ridiculous. I took this offer because I needed another starting pitcher that wouldn't cost a ton. Started into the negotiations and did what any negotiator would do..reached for the sky. Also needed a good young reliever and Caleb Ferguson (whom I hadn't hear of but had 3/4 rating) looked enticing. I asked for him too. "No problem" said Dodgers owner. I stopped there, because it was already an unrealistic/ridiculous transaction and I felt like I was cheating to the nth degree. Made the trade and felt somewhat guilty.

Of course, the 'ol statistics engine quickly raised it's ugly head and Gonsolin went .500 for me the rest of the season and raised his era over 1 full point. Ferguson, meanwhile, became lights out. Actually thought of using him as my closer in 2023 but, instead, decided to pursue Edwin Diaz. Added a bit of that history also in this thread.

This, mon ami, was a "microcosm" of what most of us experience out here.

In less than a full season timeframe I saw some of the most unlikely and, frankly, amateurish results I could imagine. Those were just the highlights. I'm not even going to get into all the other stuff that really doesn't make a lot of sense that also happened. 'Cause, I know, the gatekeepers are going to rationalize "Oh yeah, that all could/should happen because you screwed up a setting or you have to look at the big picture here, or just blah, blah, blah for the sake of clinging to a defense of the game results like a drowning man reaching for a straw on the deep lake's surface.

I've already replied to one of the Developer's and noted anyone trying to support this game has an unenviable task. It's all over the place and trying to reel it all in is not going to likely happen without a rewrite. Just my opinion.

I was a programmer and it's sort of a brethren thing. I can at least have empathy for those supporting this code.

But, folks like you that just start insulting my intelligence I have no empathy for. And won't be absolutely kind to.

[BaseballGOAT]

Originally Posted by dcordash

Just a couple takeaways from this post. Yeah, this thread has gotten off on some tangents. I've always attempted to keep it on track with the theme of the post in general..things that "take you out of the game".

This turned into all sorts of different replies and me (in my defense) trying to defend in totality what the gist of my subject line read. Yep it has gotten lengthy, but I'm still defending my initial statement. Just evolved from the Contreras trade..which it should of..to encompass all the other things that lead to my personal decision to shelf the game for the year.

Wasn't just this trade and everything that logically and realistically wouldn't have happened. And we all know it. Anyone with an agenda can create a rationale that it was perfectly normal..but it wasn't. But, that's beside the point.

This trade, amigo, was initiated with me using the good 'ol "shop player around" tool. Some of the offers were just ridiculous. I took this offer because I needed another starting pitcher that wouldn't cost a ton. Started into the negotiations and did what any negotiator would do..reached for the sky. Also needed a good young reliever and Caleb Ferguson (whom I hadn't hear of but had 3/4 rating) looked enticing. I asked for him too. "No problem" said Dodgers owner. I stopped there, because it was already an unrealistic/ridiculous transaction and I felt like I was cheating to the nth degree. Made the trade and felt somewhat guilty.

Of course, the 'ol statistics engine quickly raised it's ugly head and Gonsolin went .500 for me the rest of the season and raised his era over 1 full point. Ferguson, meanwhile, became lights out. Actually thought of using him as my closer in 2023 but, instead, decided to pursue Edwin Diaz. Added a bit of that history also in this thread.

This, mon ami, was a "microcosm" of what most of us experience out here.

In less than a full season timeframe I saw some of the most unlikely and, frankly, amateurish results I could imagine. Those were just the highlights. I'm not even going to get into all the other stuff that really doesn't make a lot of sense that also happened. 'Cause, I know, the gatekeepers are going to rationalize "Oh yeah, that all could/should happen because you screwed up a setting or you have to look at the big picture here, or just blah, blah, blah for the sake of clinging to a defense of the game results like a drowning man reaching for a straw on the deep lake's surface.

I've already replied to one of the Developer's and noted anyone trying to support this game has an unenviable task. It's all over the place and trying to reel it all in is not going to likely happen without a rewrite. Just my opinion.

I was a programmer and it's sort of a brethren thing. I can at least have empathy for those supporting this code.

But, folks like you that just start insulting my intelligence I have no empathy for. And won't be absolutely kind to.

Hey champ...
Let's be clear, if I was insulting your intelligence... I would come right out and do it in a way that was clear to you and everyone else on this board lol... if I'm insulting anything... it would be your motives. You want to attack the unpredictable nature of Ootp. I'd say you are lacking considerably in your overall understanding of the game of baseball then. Baseball is a very unpredictable game. Loads of things can easily influence a player's results in both the game and in real life. You mention how it's a conspiracy that once you got Gonsolin his numbers got worse... did you consider he's now in a hitter friendly park for any home start? Or that he's playing for a worse team? I mean come on... you can't cherry pick your arguments and ignore logic. We all get it by now... you've got an agenda against Ootp and no matter what's said against that agenda... you just change your arguement. All I can say is if you continue to purchase and/or play this game then in the words of my fellow southerners "You get what you get and can't pitch a fit"

[dcordash]

Originally Posted by BaseballGOAT

Hey champ...
Let's be clear, if I was insulting your intelligence... I would come right out and do it in a way that was clear to you and everyone else on this board lol... if I'm insulting anything... it would be your motives. You want to attack the unpredictable nature of Ootp. I'd say you are lacking considerably in your overall understanding of the game of baseball then. Baseball is a very unpredictable game. Loads of things can easily influence a player's results in both the game and in real life. You mention how it's a conspiracy that once you got Gonsolin his numbers got worse... did you consider he's now in a hitter friendly park for any home start? Or that he's playing for a worse team? I mean come on... you can't cherry pick your arguments and ignore logic. We all get it by now... you've got an agenda against Ootp and no matter what's said against that agenda... you just change your arguement. All I can say is if you continue to purchase and/or play this game then in the words of my fellow southerners "You get what you get and can't pitch a fit"

Nope, you're insulting my intelligence. This ain't the OOTP game you can just make any claim you want about it's awesomeness and the ignorance of anyone that says otherwise.

This is me saying you have insulted my intelligence with ignorant pandering in order to establish an argument. You did it..it's not open to conjecture, gaslighting, or whatever you want to add.

[dcordash]

Originally Posted by BaseballGOAT

Hey champ...
Let's be clear, if I was insulting your intelligence... I would come right out and do it in a way that was clear to you and everyone else on this board lol... if I'm insulting anything... it would be your motives. You want to attack the unpredictable nature of Ootp. I'd say you are lacking considerably in your overall understanding of the game of baseball then. Baseball is a very unpredictable game. Loads of things can easily influence a player's results in both the game and in real life. You mention how it's a conspiracy that once you got Gonsolin his numbers got worse... did you consider he's now in a hitter friendly park for any home start? Or that he's playing for a worse team? I mean come on... you can't cherry pick your arguments and ignore logic. We all get it by now... you've got an agenda against Ootp and no matter what's said against that agenda... you just change your arguement. All I can say is if you continue to purchase and/or play this game then in the words of my fellow southerners "You get what you get and can't pitch a fit"

Also, Sport, I have no agenda against OOTP. I have a desire to make it more fun for me. To reduce the elements I consider implausible in the game and I just can't overlook.

I believe it to be a great game for the most part. But short of writing a letter to Markus, who I have great respect for, with an itemized list which he may or may not be aware of and doesn't have the time anyway..I vent on this forum.


But, when I vent, I get a whole lot of recommendations. Almost everyone saying, it's perfectly plausible so shut up about it. C'mon, that's not cool. And when I don't agree I offer pretty solid reasons why. Let me share just one sentence you wrote to me and break it down:

You mention how it's a conspiracy that once you got Gonsolin his numbers got worse

I said, go back and read it, the stats engine raised it's ugly head (something like that) and Gonsolin went .500 and raised his ERA by a full point. This 23 year old rookie I got from triple A who, after researching, isn't even in the Dodgers top 51 Prospects but went on to have a killer season for my 2022 Cubs franchise. I only picked him up because of the stars (which I haven't ever figured out whether they have meaning or not).

That's not me saying "conspiracy" that's me sarcastically saying the stats engine once again surprised the holy heck out of me. It's a theme in this thread and I try to emphasize it. Not to give OOTP bad press, but to address those issues that are driving me crazy and IMO are bugs or code that really needs rewritten. Whatever, but it just ain't right.

Nothing personal with you, so please don't try to make it so with me. I'm sharing experiences with absolutely no embellishment or lies. When someone says that's perfectly natural because of this and this and this..I might disagree. That's what forums are for. Debate.

[David Watts]

Pork and Beans

[dcordash]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Pork and Beans

Great, I mean great, with BBQ. BBQ sandwiches, BBQ pork, BBQ ribs, BBQ sliders, BBQ pizza, gumbo, creole, stir-fried, pulled pork BBQ, BBQ tacos.....That- that's about it

Like peas and carrots.

[BIG17EASY]

What has happened around here that this type of behavior is allowed on these boards?

[David Watts]

I wish I could fly like Superman.

[BirdWatcher]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

What has happened around here that this type of behavior is allowed on these boards?

I barely even enjoy spending time here anymore, so many of these threads are just turning into dumpster fires.

And while I don't want to censor anyone just for having contrarian views (I have many of my own, mostly about things that have nothing to do with OOTP), I also feel like I have no desire to give oxygen to the threads of the seemingly growing number of people who appear to be coming here simply to win arguments, who respond to any attempt to respectfully disagree with them by resorting to insults, labels, condescension, and escalation, who have no interest in actual civil dialogue and can't even entertain the idea that someone other than them might have an intelligent argument as well, unless that argument is precisely in line with their own.

At this point, in many of these threads, it is David Watts' comedic/absurdist interjections that make the most sense to me. Pork and beans indeed!

[quillenl]

Originally Posted by BirdWatcher

I barely even enjoy spending time here anymore, so many of these threads are just turning into dumpster fires.

And while I don't want to censor anyone just for having contrarian views (I have many of my own, mostly about things that have nothing to do with OOTP), I also feel like I have no desire to give oxygen to the threads of the seemingly growing number of people who appear to be coming here simply to win arguments, who respond to any attempt to respectfully disagree with them by resorting to insults, labels, condescension, and escalation, who have no interest in actual civil dialogue and can't even entertain the idea that someone other than them might have an intelligent argument as well, unless that argument is precisely in line with their own.

At this point, in many of these threads, it is David Watts' comedic/absurdist interjections that make the most sense to me. Pork and beans indeed!

Nothing to really add, so thanks for putting it so well.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by BirdWatcher

I barely even enjoy spending time here anymore, so many of these threads are just turning into dumpster fires.

And while I don't want to censor anyone just for having contrarian views (I have many of my own, mostly about things that have nothing to do with OOTP), I also feel like I have no desire to give oxygen to the threads of the seemingly growing number of people who appear to be coming here simply to win arguments, who respond to any attempt to respectfully disagree with them by resorting to insults, labels, condescension, and escalation, who have no interest in actual civil dialogue and can't even entertain the idea that someone other than them might have an intelligent argument as well, unless that argument is precisely in line with their own.

At this point, in many of these threads, it is David Watts' comedic/absurdist interjections that make the most sense to me. Pork and beans indeed!

Well said.

[dcordash]

Originally Posted by quillenl

Nothing to really add, so thanks for putting it so well.

Hopefully we're not talking about me, because mine started out pretty civil.

It's always civil until you take a stance someone doesn't agree with. Then it turns into debate and, yes, often it turns into immature stuff. But anyone wanting to judge really needs to know the whole story viewing it with a neutral perspective.

No offense, but if you have prejudices supporting the game and denying it potentially has some warts..forget about being neutral. If you're open-minded and have no agenda one way or the other..you might see things in a different light.

I reply to anyone that replies to me. Always thought that was the process an OP should follow.

[fuzzy_patters]

Originally Posted by dcordash

Hopefully we're not talking about me, because mine started out pretty civil.

It's always civil until you take a stance someone doesn't agree with. Then it turns into debate and, yes, often it turns into immature stuff. But anyone wanting to judge really needs to know the whole story viewing it with a neutral perspective.

No offense, but if you have prejudices supporting the game and denying it potentially has some warts..forget about being neutral. If you're open-minded and have no agenda one way or the other..you might see things in a different light.

I reply to anyone that replies to me. Always thought that was the process an OP should follow.

Why do you assume that you’re the open-minded one?