So it "seems"... hit and run...

[Bobbyraz49]

I play one pitch mode as gm/mgr of the Phillies. It "seems" every time I attempt a hit and run the ball goes foul. I try on the next pitch and same result. Now my batter is 0-2. Anyone else having this issue ?

Why did I pick Philly ? My mom's cousin was Danny Ozark from right here in Buffalo. Want to see why he shortened his last name ? Look him up.

[The Game]

I never use Hit & run. I do use Run & hit often though.

[Sweed]

I don't think the 0-2 count matters in v23 as far as trying one more time. The AI is not pitching out automatically like it might in v22 and before. At first I was leery about going on 0-2 also, hell even 0-1. Then I started repeating the H&R on 0-1 with no detrimental affect, IE no pitchout. I then expanded to trying on 0-2. Same result. Yes, it can still happen along with "strike 'em out, throw 'em out" but that is as it should be. But, and this is a big but, it's not an automatic thing because of the 0-2 count in "one pitch".

I think the H&R, along with steals, has been hugely improved for v23 and the foul balls are part of the package. My experience before v23 was one should always take a pitch before using H&R, especially with any kind of speed on base, because the AI was likely to pitch out. Problem was if the AI did not pitch out you were down 0-1 in the count which, in my experience, v22 and before, meant there was a good chance the AI would pitch out again and get your guy stealing. IOW once down 0-1, in one pitch mode, your best bet was to not H&R. Too many caught stealing on PO. This would lead to hitting into DPs because you didn't feel like H&R was a good option any longer due to the likely hood of a pitchout. Your second best option was to take again, get to 1-1, take again and hope to get to 2-1. If I couldn't do that, I took off the H&R.

My experience with v23 is the AI has toned down the pitchouts and, for the human player, the automatic H&R has been replaced with failed attempts, IE foul balls. I no longer fear continuing to try the H&R in v23. A "bad ending" can still happen but is not so automatic.

My 2 cents, TIFWIW

[Ty Cobb]

Generally, the fouls seem to occur when you're H&R with a lower contact hitter...in my experience.

[locuspc]

When you hit and run the batter is trying to make contact no matter what, even on a pitch he's not on top of or is outside the zone. So you're not going to see balls or strikes looking, and a lot of those are going to convert into foul balls the batter just barely managed to spoil. I don't hit and run a lot, so I don't know if the rate of foul balls is truly absurd, but you would expect an elevated foul ball rate.

[Pelican]

Good point on the need for the batter to swing no matter what. IRL that would produce lots of foul balls.

On the other hand, I sometimes use "run and hit" with good basestealers on first base, so that even if the batter misses the pitch, they have a decent chance to steal the base. Of course, they can also get doubled off first base on a line drive. Or break up a potential double play, because they are closer to second base.

With my good basestealers, I am sometimes frustrated that they start and stop, when I use the steal button. That never happens with the run and hit choice.

To the OP, great to have Phils' fans in Buffalo. I always thought that Danny Ozark was the right guy for a team of veteran stars, who didn't need much active "managing" on the field. Just let them play. Charlie Manuel was the exact same thing. Joe Girardi was the opposite.

[fergman78]

I hit into my first triple play today trying to hit and run. Runners on 1st and 2nd batter lined to center. Center Fielder catches throws to second who then relays to first.

[md40022]

Without any stats to back this, I would imagine there is a much higher percentage of foul balls hit on hit & runs than in normal at bats.

The batter is up there being told to swing at, and attempt to make contact, on literally any pitch he sees regardless of location. I'd imagine little fouled off dribblers probably occur at a much higher rate here than in any other scenario (again, I have no stats to back this but it would make sense)

I've always preferred the Run&Hit over the Hit&Run anyway. Anytime you have your base runner steal, you have to be aware that he might get thrown out (duh). So if you're aware of and okay with that risk in a given scenario, I'd prefer to let the hitter treat it as a regular at bat for he can square up on a pitch he likes instead of going after some garbage pitch (to the point of the original post).... They each have their own positives and negatives, I've just personally always felt the R&H was the better option.

[Pelican]

Originally Posted by md40022

Without any stats to back this, I would imagine there is a much higher percentage of foul balls hit on hit & runs than in normal at bats.

The batter is up there being told to swing at, and attempt to make contact, on literally any pitch he sees regardless of location. I'd imagine little fouled off dribblers probably occur at a much higher rate here than in any other scenario (again, I have no stats to back this but it would make sense)

I've always preferred the Run&Hit over the Hit&Run anyway. Anytime you have your base runner steal, you have to be aware that he might get thrown out (duh). So if you're aware of and okay with that risk in a given scenario, I'd prefer to let the hitter treat it as a regular at bat for he can square up on a pitch he likes instead of going after some garbage pitch (to the point of the original post).... They each have their own positives and negatives, I've just personally always felt the R&H was the better option.

Agreed. Also helps to have a batter with a high Contact rating, to avoid the KO/CS DP.

[oldfatbaldguy]

Originally Posted by md40022

I'd prefer to let the hitter treat it as a regular at bat for he can square up on a pitch he likes instead of going after some garbage pitch (to the point of the original post).... They each have their own positives and negatives, I've just personally always felt the R&H was the better option.

This makes so much sense I'm questioning my life decisions. I use H&R mostly as a tactic to avoid double plays. Sure, sometimes I decide to do that and there's a pitchout and it's a K/CS double play, but sometimes I decide not to do that and the batter hits it straight to the shortstop on two hops. Same result, if I don't send the runner. So if it's a high-contact hitter who hits a lot of ground balls, H&R makes sense to me, especially if the batter is slow. OTOH, what's the downside of R&H instead? Is the runner more selective about his jump? .

[md40022]

Originally Posted by oldfatbaldguy

This makes so much sense I'm questioning my life decisions. I use H&R mostly as a tactic to avoid double plays. Sure, sometimes I decide to do that and there's a pitchout and it's a K/CS double play, but sometimes I decide not to do that and the batter hits it straight to the shortstop on two hops. Same result, if I don't send the runner. So if it's a high-contact hitter who hits a lot of ground balls, H&R makes sense to me, especially if the batter is slow. OTOH, what's the downside of R&H instead? Is the runner more selective about his jump? .

No difference in runner's approach when it comes to H&R vs. R&H. The differences are specific to the batter's approach. With a H&R the batter is being instructed to make contact and put the ball in-play at all costs because it's the batter's job to "protect the runner". This is why you will see a lot of foul balls here or you'll also see a lot of weak contact - because the batter is swinging at any pitch he sees, regardless of location. The main purposes of the H&R are to stay out of the double play, and to get the runner on 1st base over to 2nd base. Usually it's a slower runner on 1st that you're trying to get over the 2nd. Hence why you need that "protection" from the hitter. A lot of similarities to the sac bunt. The ideal hitter in a H&R is a good contact guy who can handle the bat, because as he's slapping at the pitch just trying to make contact there will be times when he can poke that slap hit through a hole in the infield as the middle infielders were breaking to 2nd base to cover the bag on the steal..... The downsides to the H&R is you're almost giving up on the hitter doing anything substantial (again, unless you luck out with him slapping it thru a hole) and in the event that the hitter doesn't make contact, your base stealer is often a dead man since you tend to do this with slower runners.

The R&H is different because the runner is still stealing 2nd base, but the hitter now is treating that up coming pitch just like he would in a regular at bat. Meaning if it's a bad pitch, he's not swinging. You normally wouldn't R&H with a slow runner, since the hitter isn't "protecting" the runner. So if you're in a close game in late innings and getting that slow runner over to 2nd base is your top priority, R&H is a waste. But the obvious upside to R&H is you aren't giving up on the hitter. That hitter can still line a double into the gap.Your runner needs to be "heads up" though because when he starts to steal 2nd, if the hitter hits a line drive anywhere the runner needs to slam on the breaks and get back to 1st --- if you R&H enough, you'll get a few double plays with this.

My own personal philosophy (keep in mind, I'm an idiot) is any time at all that I have a fast guy on base who I would be good with trying to steal, I am ALWAYS using R&H. I never use the straight steal. A fast guy on base and I wanna run, it's R&H 1000% of the time. Yeah, every now and then I'll line into a double play but far more often than that I will get a base hit with the runner in motion and that might get me a run. And if the hitter doesn't see a pitch he likes, he takes it. And I'm fine with that because I already determined that I was fine with trying to steal 2nd base there. And if I have a slow guy on 1st base that I need to get over to 2nd base, I will do that via a sac-bunt. If the guy misses the bunt, the runner isn't hung out to dry. And if the guy puts down a bad bunt and the runner is thrown out at 2nd, at least now I have more speed on 1st....

I'm not a H&R guy because it can easily result in 2 outs. Hitter doesn't make contact, slow runner = thrown out. Now you still got your same hitter up there and he's down in the count now = big advantage pitcher. At least when a sac-bunt goes bad you're only taking 1 out and still have a man on 1st base..... So I am R&H over straight steal 100% of the time, and sac-bunt over H&R 100% of the time.

[Syd Thrift]

No, that’s wrong. A runner on the hit and run isn’t really trying to steal. They make their jump relatively late so that the defense doesn’t have time to react and tries to take advantage of the confusion. On the other hand if the batter misses the pitch the runner is a dead duck. A run and hit, which was popularized by Earl Weaver, involves the runner making the jump and trying to steal if he gets it and the batter trying to hit if he sees his pitch. The latter is more of a “green light with the batter swinging away”.

I think the hit and run was far, far more popular at the end of the 19th century and during the Deadball Era than it is now because players have more hours of baseball nowadays and are less likely to be confused. Bill James has also said he thinks “strategy” elements like this and the bunt (especially the squeeze play) were more common because they represented a way to improve team cohesion. Also of course batters definitely strike out way more often and thus whiff way more often on individual pitches. That said, it did have a resurgence in the 70s, particularly by the Indians, although there it should be noted that the Indians did not have a particularly strong offense and got caught stealing a lot.

[md40022]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

No, that’s wrong. A runner on the hit and run isn’t really trying to steal. They make their jump relatively late so that the defense doesn’t have time to react and tries to take advantage of the confusion. On the other hand if the batter misses the pitch the runner is a dead duck. .

It's not wrong.

When you say they make their jump late, how late are you talking? If you're saying after the catcher already has the ball, that's obviously not a hit and run. It's a delayed steal. If you're saying after the batter has already made contact, that's obviously not a hit and run, it's simply running on contact. So I'm assuming you're saying the runner doesn't break until the pitch is in progress..... and I'm not sure what that is meant to accomplish. Runner is being completely hung out to dry there. Maybe that type of thing confused a defense in 1904, but that's not really a thing anymore.

A true H&R absolutely has the runner breaking on the pitch. How the defense responds is ultimately up to them, but if they do defend the steal attempt then "poking the ball thru" is the idea there.

**edit - To be fair, since a H&R does usually involve a slower runner maybe the runner isn't busting out of the gates like Rickey Henderson because maybe he's an old catcher with bad knees who knows a successful steal isn't likely. So I'll agree with your point there. But the idea of him intentionally getting a late jump.... no.

** edit #2 --- and for the runner to intentionally get a late jump, while knowing fully well that the batter is probably going to make weak contact would actually encourage more double plays than prevent them as now you got some slow runner casually taking his time in advancing himself while the hitter is more or less up there specifically trying to hit a double play grounder to 2nd base lol.... Sorry, but what you're describing is not accurate at all. It might look like the runner isn't trying to steal because the runner is Yan Gomes or Yadi Molina, but to say the runner is "supposed to" get a late jump is wrong.

[Syd Thrift]

A runner breaks on a hit and run slightly later than they do on a straight steal. Obviously it’s before the ball is put in play - that would just be a regular play - but it’s slightly later than on a regular steal. Also of course the runner breaks regardless of the pitch so on average they’re moving on a ball that’s being thrown faster than they probably would on a regular steal, which also increases their chances of being thrown out.

This isn’t anything new to the game or anything particularly unknown.

[md40022]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

A runner breaks on a hit and run slightly later than they do on a straight steal. Obviously it’s before the ball is put in play - that would just be a regular play - but it’s slightly later than on a regular steal. Also of course the runner breaks regardless of the pitch so on average they’re moving on a ball that’s being thrown faster than they probably would on a regular steal, which also increases their chances of being thrown out.

This isn’t anything new to the game or anything particularly unknown.

*sigh* First off I apologize to anyone reading this thread, because I don't want to be petty here. But, if I'm going to be flat out told that I'm wrong, when I'm not wrong.... I do take a little issue with that.

The breaking late to confuse the defense thing is literally almost 100 years old. There was an article in S.I. or The Sporting News or something like that from like 1920 or something that referenced what you're saying and it was mocked to death in present day. That is why I jokingly said 'confusing the defense' might have held weight in 1904, but not today.

Getting a delayed jump serves no positive. It increases the runner's likelihood of being thrown out if the hitter can't make contact. And if the hitter makes weak contact, as is normally expected here, the defense has a better chance of turning a double play if the runner got a late jump. Obviously.

Here is Baseball Reference defining a Hit & Run. Noting the runner breaking to 2nd base "with the pitch", as I initially stated....
https://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Hit-and-run

Here are diagrams of properly executed H&R with the hitter poking the ball through the gap in the defense, as I initially stated....
https://www.baseball-tutorials.com/s...-and-run/2382/

Here is Harold Reynolds & Billy Ripken explaining the H&R in video form. Note how they say the runner should already be 3 steps toward 2nd base when the ball crosses the plate. Their point being on that 3rd step the runner should glance home to make sure the hitter didnt hit the ball in the air. You aren't 3 steps deep when the ball crosses the plate if you're intentionally delaying your jump.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGTFSq7A5UA

Here is a video of Dan Blewett analyzing pros/cons of H&R. Specifically saying the runner is stealing on the pitch and again the hitter is trying to shoot the ball thru the gap, as I initially stated
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_J4rbdbTH0


And again, I'm sorry for being petty here. Just don't like being called out for being wrong when I'm not wrong lol, only to have the person who called me out be the wrong one

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by your source

The runner must take a peek into the hitter the whole time

That sure doesn’t sound like a full-throated steal attempt to me…

The BBRef article also references the need to peek back. If you want to argue that the runner breaks early and then stops for a split second to peek back, whatever.

[md40022]

Saying that the runner needs to "stop for a split second" to glance back is a big time stretch. I'm pretty sure that gets done all in one motion. To the guy that has to stop to glance back, I hope he's not chewing bubble gum next time he has to tie his shoe. He might have a mental overload.

But anyway, I've said what I have to say. The runner goes on the pitch.

[Bobfather]

Is there a way to roll back all baserunning to the previous version? Meaning how the AI handles stolen bases. hit Runs, and run and hits. I am in the 15th season of my league and have always built my team around speed and defense., and now that strategy fails. I am running a dynasty so I have most of the same players every season. So to see players go from 50+ SBs a year to barely 20 is ridiculous

[Pelican]

Another aspect of the H&R and R&H is the hitter aiming to shoot the ball toward the gaping hole created when the 2B (or SS) moves to the bag to receive the throw from the catcher, so that a likely 4-6-3 or 6-4-3 DP becomes first and third. Again, as has been said, requires a high degree of bat control.

But the concern over the batter having to swing at any pitch on a H&R is reduced somewhat - if you play each pitch - by a 1-0 or 2-0 or 2-1 count, where the pitcher is more likely to throw a pitch in the strike zone. (I would not H&R or R&H on a 3-0 count, as the runner is now likely to get to 2B without it.). Conversely, not smart to call H&R on an 0-1 count, or Heaven forbid 0-2, when the hurler has every reason to waste a pitch or throw an offspeed or breaking ball out of the zone, trying to get the poor befuddled batter to chase. In that situation, it will be hard to put the bat on the ball.

[dcordash]

Originally Posted by Bobbyraz49

I play one pitch mode as gm/mgr of the Phillies. It "seems" every time I attempt a hit and run the ball goes foul. I try on the next pitch and same result. Now my batter is 0-2. Anyone else having this issue ?

Why did I pick Philly ? My mom's cousin was Danny Ozark from right here in Buffalo. Want to see why he shortened his last name ? Look him up.

Absolutely. See it quite often.