Takes you out of the moment

dcordash · 07-27-2022, 07:40 PM

It's things like this that constantly remind you the "simulation" part of this game often misses the mark. This may not be the hugest example, but it's one to add to all the other head-shakers. And why you just start to question all elements of the game. How much is just arbitrary..and how much really (I mean really) is based entirely on a statistical model.

I made this trade from my Cubs team to sorta mimic what is likely to happen. Part of the fun of the game. But, it ain't fun when you see ridiculous results. Just reminds you this game needs a lot of work in, at least, some areas.

In the first place, I'm sure the Dodgers wouldn't have given up Gonsolin with his 11-0 record straight up for Contreras. But they threw in Caleb Ferguson (who has been lights out as a reliever for the Cubs MLB team) as well. However, I can overlook this..AI just can't nail it all. Bad trades happen.

But to give up the talent the Dodgers did for Contreras and then demote him to Triple A 100 or so AB's later is ridiculous. And, why I give up on this game every year and quit playing.

What's more ridiculous? I keep buying this game every year with high expectations. You know the definition of insanity.....

https://twitter.com/AshDcord/status/1552420969708412928

md40022 · 07-27-2022, 07:56 PM

He's on a rehab assignment. That's why he's in AAA right now. Injury rehab.

I'm not sure you'd be able to send Contreras down to AAA even if you wanted, he might have enough ML service time where he can (and would) decline.

Injury rehab though, my friend.

Sweed · 07-27-2022, 07:58 PM

md40022 · 07-27-2022, 08:00 PM

Now why the Dodgers would be trading for Contreras in the first place is a different question all together, being that they already have an all-star caliber catcher in the prime of his career on their roster...... but they didn't demote Contreras to AAA.

dcordash · 07-27-2022, 08:12 PM

Right you are about the injury status. I'll follow this and let you know. Actually, first thing I'm going to do is see what the Dodgers did with Will Smith. Perhaps they are using WC as a DH.

Regardless, his stats tanking was sorta strange in the first place. NOT that it can't happen as folks on this forum constantly remind the critics. Generally not during a career year of course, but stranger things have happened.

dcordash · 07-27-2022, 08:22 PM

Well, they alternated Contreras and Will Smith at catcher a bunch of the time. Would be awesome to have that sort of catcher depth no doubt.

But, strangely, Smith emerged as a 3B. Convenient, not entirely plausible. But, hey, Craig Biggio did it. Maybe Smith is a speedy closet base-stealer and they decided to save his knees?

Regardless much more likely (though still outlandish) scenario than casting Contreras off to the squalor of triple A.

md40022 · 07-27-2022, 08:28 PM

I can't really speak on Will Smith (can't speak on Jada either without getting slapped), but as a Chicagoan and Cubs fan myself, I will say Contreras does have some corner OF and 3B experience himself in the minors and small bit of it in the majors as well. He's a complete hack at those positions, but I suppose a team in "win now" mode like the Dodgers could toy with that idea if they just wanted another good bat in the lineup....

Hotwheelz · 07-27-2022, 08:54 PM

Will Smith played 273 innings at 3B in the minors in 2018 and an article I found from 2019 had him listed as C/3B. So he has some history at 3B. Oh and he played 2 innings at 3B in 2021.

So it makes some sense to give it a shot if you have a logjam behind the plate.

dcordash · 07-27-2022, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by md40022

I can't really speak on Will Smith (can't speak on Jada either without getting slapped).

HaHa. That was pretty good.

Yeah, I went back to try to find another flaw about the Cron now on the Guardians situation. Really thought I had another gripe. Because I see stud players changing teams constantly. And, in MLB, it's not rare..but it sure doesn't seem to be as prominent as OOTP haphazardly depicts it.

But, the Rockies who had a dismal record in 2022 traded Cron on 7-4-2022 while the Guardians were in first place. Actually Cleveland finished the season in 1st. Now, the guys they gave up for Cron didn't make a ton of sense..with Aaron Bracho (Cleveland #7 prospect) being the highlight. Also, BTW, Cron still had a year on his contract with Rockies so that didn't exactly fit..But you could at least rationalize it "could" happen.

dcordash · 07-27-2022, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotwheelz

Will Smith played 273 innings at 3B in the minors in 2018 and an article I found from 2019 had him listed as C/3B. So he has some history at 3B. Oh and he played 2 innings at 3B in 2021.

So it makes some sense to give it a shot if you have a logjam behind the plate.

I understand if you happen to be a gatekeeper or have an agenda to defend the game. Nothing wrong with being loyal and naysaying critics. Don't fault you for that.

But, c'mon, other than the guy I already mentioned..Craig Biggio..when have you ever heard of a Superstar Catcher switching positions during the prime of his career? We can rationalize anything into a compartment of plausibility. But, when you have to rationalize a WHOLE lot to fit the OOTP unusual into an accurate depiction of MLB..means the developers still got a lot of work to do.

No doubt, I appreciate what the team has accomplished to date, but there are still glaring holes.

Syd Thrift · 07-27-2022, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcordash

Well, they alternated Contreras and Will Smith at catcher a bunch of the time. Would be awesome to have that sort of catcher depth no doubt.

But, strangely, Smith emerged as a 3B. Convenient, not entirely plausible. But, hey, Craig Biggio did it. Maybe Smith is a speedy closet base-stealer and they decided to save his knees?

Regardless much more likely (though still outlandish) scenario than casting Contreras off to the squalor of triple A.

Biggio actually made a much rarer move, the transition from catcher to second base. Catcher to third happens fairly regularly because both positions require right-handed arm strength. And generally speaking, taking a decent hitter off of catcher, even/especially at a young age, is kind of common itself - you allow the guy to play 150+ games a year and there's a common belief that the rigors of the position cause a player's hitting to degrade over time.

A few guys who switched out, some of whom you may not know about:

Dale Murphy (to RF)
Brian Downing (to LF)
Raul Ibanez (to "LF")
BJ Surhoff (to OF)
Todd Zeile (to 3B)
Carlos Delgado (to 1B)
Joey Votto (to 1B, obvs)
Jimmy Foxx (to OF and 1B)
Bryce Harper (to mostly RF)

Plus of course Johnny Bench was rather famously awful when he tried to move to 3B in "mid" career (I say "mid" because I think that was the intention but after he was really bad there he was out of the league a year later), and then the White Sox tried to push Carlton Fisk out into left field in his late 30s to make room for the immortal Ron Karkovice.

LansdowneSt · 07-27-2022, 09:36 PM

Out of the box, he definitely has the 3B experience. The concern, as I understand it, isn't that the AI plays him at third - because that's the info it has. And 37 (I use 1-100, if that matters and my game atm isn't 100% scouting) is the same as my Raffy Devers on defense. The issue's that you do not believe the current and potential 3B skill for Will Smith as loaded into the MLB Quickstart, correct?

dcordash · 07-27-2022, 09:59 PM

As I recall Dale Murphy lost his ability to throw back to the pitcher's mound. And that happened before he was on a MLB roster every day. He was a catcher/1b in the minors.

Without digging I'm going to "guess" most of your examples are quite different then Will Smith's OOTP scenario. Will Smith has played since 2019 exclusively as a catcher (with the rare..very rare..start at another position). Perhaps DH now and then, dunno, but I would suspect they like to keep him behind the plate because he's also a very good defensive catcher.

So, yeah, you can rationalize anything..but, c'mon, all the rationalizing and "almost" examples you can come up with don't really dovetail into the OOTP normal every day unusual.

But, I'm sure that list took some digging and I commend you for the effort. Whatever the motivation.

dcordash · 07-27-2022, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Biggio actually made a much rarer move, the transition from catcher to second base. Catcher to third happens fairly regularly because both positions require right-handed arm strength. And generally speaking, taking a decent hitter off of catcher, even/especially at a young age, is kind of common itself - you allow the guy to play 150+ games a year and there's a common belief that the rigors of the position cause a player's hitting to degrade over time.

A few guys who switched out, some of whom you may not know about:

Dale Murphy (to RF)
Brian Downing (to LF)
Raul Ibanez (to "LF")
BJ Surhoff (to OF)
Todd Zeile (to 3B)
Carlos Delgado (to 1B)
Joey Votto (to 1B, obvs)
Jimmy Foxx (to OF and 1B)
Bryce Harper (to mostly RF)

Plus of course Johnny Bench was rather famously awful when he tried to move to 3B in "mid" career (I say "mid" because I think that was the intention but after he was really bad there he was out of the league a year later), and then the White Sox tried to push Carlton Fisk out into left field in his late 30s to make room for the immortal Ron Karkovice.

BJ Surhoff was the only one in the list, I could find after abbreviated research, that was even similar to the Will Smith thingie.

Guess my point is..why do these relatively rare occurrences in MLB history and play..happen quite often in OOTP? Because something happened a handful of times in 150 years of MLB, it can/should happen frequently in OOTP?

I dunno the answer, I just know the culmination of atypical can lead to putoff-ish customers.

locuspc · 07-28-2022, 01:21 AM

Sending your star down to AAA after an injury does seem a little weird but it's very much a thing that happens in real life. I do think that in real life a team would try to trade a good-hitting catcher rather than shift him to be a mediocre 3B to fit his bat in the lineup.

I will say that I rarely see this in my games, in fact I can't recall a single time I've seen a player with C as his best position starting somewhere else. I just checked my current save, and Will Smith is reaching the end of his career as a primary catcher. He's filled in at 3B a few times in an emergency but never more than 40 innings in a season. I think it's best to treat this as the sort of rare occurrence that happens rarely in the game and rarely in real life.

md40022 · 07-28-2022, 10:02 AM

I don't see how you perfect this concept from an AI standpoint though.

If Will Smith is capable of playing 3B, which it sounds like he is, and the Dodgers are in "win now" mode, and a player of Willson Contreras skill is on the trade market...... I would understand why a computer's AI would make the trade.

I suppose that certain marquee players could have something coded into them where they don't switch positions on a full time basis, for any reason ever, until maybe a certain age...... But anything short of that, it is almost impossible to bring a human element into AI trade logic.

We gotta remember something. The AI doesn't view this guy as Will Smith of the LA Dodgers. He views him as ID# 164782. And if code says 164782 can move to 3B for that new player 263312 can move to catcher while trading 199211 and 175920 then it will make the deal..... And I know what I'm saying there isn't really accurate, but my point is the computer is not capable of viewing these guys as real life guys. It views them as numbers and codes. Putting a human element on the trade engine isn't really possible. Best I could see happening is like I mentioned, certain "elite" guys are just coded to be locked into their positions I guess.

md40022 · 07-28-2022, 10:22 AM

Im not an apologist for OOTP. I'm far from that. I'm on another thread now more or less BEGGING the developers to explain their auto-calc feature given the amount of uncertainty and conflicting info there is on it --- and it's been *crickets* from the developers. Legitimately has me questioning if they even understand it themselves. Like, was it created by someone who doesn't work with them anymore or something. So I am FARRRRRR from an OOTP apologist.

That said though, the engine is just that. An engine. It's not human. And some logic in roster moves is going to be impossible to perfect for that reason. All of us can sit here and talk about Will Smith being a young catcher, a 1st round pick, a "blue chipper" and it would be bizarre for him to change positions for the sake of them acquiring another catcher...... but how in the bleepin-bleep do you code that into a computer's AI????

Let's not forget, the initial reason of your post wasn't, "why would the dodgers want contreras if they already have smith." The initial post was, "why would the dodgers trade the farm for contreras and then option him to AAA." Well, they didn't option him to AAA. He was on injury rehab. Only after we established that did we then shift our anger to the secondary point. And I do agree, this would be a bizarre scenario IRL...... but there's just some human common sense stuff that IMO is impossible to code into a game. This isn't Will Smith and Willson Contreras to the computer. To the computer, they are just numbers.

On this topic though, IRL there was an article I read a day or two ago saying the Mets and Astros were both "in" on the Contreras trade rumors. However, both teams were concerned how Contreras would or wouldn't mesh with their pitching staffs on-the-fly, but at the end of the day they still want his bat. That kinda-sorta-maybe sounds a little like your scenario. Yeah the Dodgers already have Smith, but they of course want to add another bat to the lineup. So.......

David Watts · 07-28-2022, 10:26 AM

Brandon Inge moved from catcher to 3B in the prime of his career. Brandon's mom told me to post this, as even if I didn't think he was a superstar, he was a Hall of Famer in her book.

BIG17EASY · 07-28-2022, 10:28 AM

If you want a game that mimics real life, play Strat-O-Matic. If you want a game that uses real players but creates fictional results, play OOTP. It's really as simple as that. Expecting OOTP to happen exactly as real life does (or as we think real life should) is going to lead to a lot of frustration.

Matt Arnold · 07-28-2022, 10:40 AM

I mean, just last year we had Trea Turner dealt at the deadline and shifted to 2B, Bryant dealt and shifted to basically a fulltime OF, although both obviously had played there more recently than Smith had played 3B. And both deals were shifting the "new guy" to a new spot, rather than shifting someone else to another spot.

To me, the flaws in the above deal are:
-LAD shouldn't deal someone like Gonsolin at the deadline, even if they're getting Contreras back
-Smith probably shouldn't be rated much at 3B given how little he has played there recently.

The issue about who should or shouldn't have experience at a position is always one of those weird things. If you rate guys badly and give no experience, the AI gets really tight on roster moves. But if you give more experience, you might get the above where guys shift over too easily.

The other issue we do try to prevent, but it's always hard to balance. Like, I think we would all say if the Cubs came to LAD and asked for Gonsolin they would laugh them out the door. But if CHC asked for Tyler Anderson, I'm pretty sure the Dodgers wouldn't care that he's arguably pitching better than Gonsolin and wouldn't think twice about including him in a deal.

07-27-2022, 07:40 PM	#1
dcordash Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 103	Takes you out of the moment It's things like this that constantly remind you the "simulation" part of this game often misses the mark. This may not be the hugest example, but it's one to add to all the other head-shakers. And why you just start to question all elements of the game. How much is just arbitrary..and how much really (I mean really) is based entirely on a statistical model. I made this trade from my Cubs team to sorta mimic what is likely to happen. Part of the fun of the game. But, it ain't fun when you see ridiculous results. Just reminds you this game needs a lot of work in, at least, some areas. In the first place, I'm sure the Dodgers wouldn't have given up Gonsolin with his 11-0 record straight up for Contreras. But they threw in Caleb Ferguson (who has been lights out as a reliever for the Cubs MLB team) as well. However, I can overlook this..AI just can't nail it all. Bad trades happen. But to give up the talent the Dodgers did for Contreras and then demote him to Triple A 100 or so AB's later is ridiculous. And, why I give up on this game every year and quit playing. What's more ridiculous? I keep buying this game every year with high expectations. You know the definition of insanity..... https://twitter.com/AshDcord/status/1552420969708412928

07-27-2022, 08:22 PM	#6
dcordash Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 103	The 'ol catcher converted to 3B trick Well, they alternated Contreras and Will Smith at catcher a bunch of the time. Would be awesome to have that sort of catcher depth no doubt. But, strangely, Smith emerged as a 3B. Convenient, not entirely plausible. But, hey, Craig Biggio did it. Maybe Smith is a speedy closet base-stealer and they decided to save his knees? Regardless much more likely (though still outlandish) scenario than casting Contreras off to the squalor of triple A.

07-27-2022, 08:54 PM	#8
Hotwheelz All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 1,620	Will Smith played 273 innings at 3B in the minors in 2018 and an article I found from 2019 had him listed as C/3B. So he has some history at 3B. Oh and he played 2 innings at 3B in 2021. So it makes some sense to give it a shot if you have a logjam behind the plate. __________________ "It's a great day for a ballgame; let's play two." Ernie Banks

07-27-2022, 09:36 PM	#12
LansdowneSt Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: From Duxbury, Mass residing Baltimore Posts: 7,482	Out of the box, he definitely has the 3B experience. The concern, as I understand it, isn't that the AI plays him at third - because that's the info it has. And 37 (I use 1-100, if that matters and my game atm isn't 100% scouting) is the same as my Raffy Devers on defense. The issue's that you do not believe the current and potential 3B skill for Will Smith as loaded into the MLB Quickstart, correct? Attached Images

07-27-2022, 07:56 PM	#2
md40022 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 740 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	He's on a rehab assignment. That's why he's in AAA right now. Injury rehab. I'm not sure you'd be able to send Contreras down to AAA even if you wanted, he might have enough ML service time where he can (and would) decline. Injury rehab though, my friend.

07-27-2022, 07:58 PM	#3
Sweed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 6,698

07-27-2022, 08:00 PM	#4
md40022 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 740 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Now why the Dodgers would be trading for Contreras in the first place is a different question all together, being that they already have an all-star caliber catcher in the prime of his career on their roster...... but they didn't demote Contreras to AAA.

07-27-2022, 08:12 PM	#5
dcordash Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 103	Right you are about the injury status. I'll follow this and let you know. Actually, first thing I'm going to do is see what the Dodgers did with Will Smith. Perhaps they are using WC as a DH. Regardless, his stats tanking was sorta strange in the first place. NOT that it can't happen as folks on this forum constantly remind the critics. Generally not during a career year of course, but stranger things have happened.

07-27-2022, 08:28 PM	#7
md40022 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 740 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	I can't really speak on Will Smith (can't speak on Jada either without getting slapped), but as a Chicagoan and Cubs fan myself, I will say Contreras does have some corner OF and 3B experience himself in the minors and small bit of it in the majors as well. He's a complete hack at those positions, but I suppose a team in "win now" mode like the Dodgers could toy with that idea if they just wanted another good bat in the lineup....

07-27-2022, 09:59 PM	#13
dcordash Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 103	As I recall Dale Murphy lost his ability to throw back to the pitcher's mound. And that happened before he was on a MLB roster every day. He was a catcher/1b in the minors. Without digging I'm going to "guess" most of your examples are quite different then Will Smith's OOTP scenario. Will Smith has played since 2019 exclusively as a catcher (with the rare..very rare..start at another position). Perhaps DH now and then, dunno, but I would suspect they like to keep him behind the plate because he's also a very good defensive catcher. So, yeah, you can rationalize anything..but, c'mon, all the rationalizing and "almost" examples you can come up with don't really dovetail into the OOTP normal every day unusual. But, I'm sure that list took some digging and I commend you for the effort. Whatever the motivation.

07-28-2022, 01:21 AM	#15
locuspc Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2022 Posts: 301	Sending your star down to AAA after an injury does seem a little weird but it's very much a thing that happens in real life. I do think that in real life a team would try to trade a good-hitting catcher rather than shift him to be a mediocre 3B to fit his bat in the lineup. I will say that I rarely see this in my games, in fact I can't recall a single time I've seen a player with C as his best position starting somewhere else. I just checked my current save, and Will Smith is reaching the end of his career as a primary catcher. He's filled in at 3B a few times in an emergency but never more than 40 innings in a season. I think it's best to treat this as the sort of rare occurrence that happens rarely in the game and rarely in real life.

07-28-2022, 10:02 AM	#16
md40022 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 740 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	I don't see how you perfect this concept from an AI standpoint though. If Will Smith is capable of playing 3B, which it sounds like he is, and the Dodgers are in "win now" mode, and a player of Willson Contreras skill is on the trade market...... I would understand why a computer's AI would make the trade. I suppose that certain marquee players could have something coded into them where they don't switch positions on a full time basis, for any reason ever, until maybe a certain age...... But anything short of that, it is almost impossible to bring a human element into AI trade logic. We gotta remember something. The AI doesn't view this guy as Will Smith of the LA Dodgers. He views him as ID# 164782. And if code says 164782 can move to 3B for that new player 263312 can move to catcher while trading 199211 and 175920 then it will make the deal..... And I know what I'm saying there isn't really accurate, but my point is the computer is not capable of viewing these guys as real life guys. It views them as numbers and codes. Putting a human element on the trade engine isn't really possible. Best I could see happening is like I mentioned, certain "elite" guys are just coded to be locked into their positions I guess.

07-28-2022, 10:22 AM	#17
md40022 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 740 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Im not an apologist for OOTP. I'm far from that. I'm on another thread now more or less BEGGING the developers to explain their auto-calc feature given the amount of uncertainty and conflicting info there is on it --- and it's been crickets from the developers. Legitimately has me questioning if they even understand it themselves. Like, was it created by someone who doesn't work with them anymore or something. So I am FARRRRRR from an OOTP apologist. That said though, the engine is just that. An engine. It's not human. And some logic in roster moves is going to be impossible to perfect for that reason. All of us can sit here and talk about Will Smith being a young catcher, a 1st round pick, a "blue chipper" and it would be bizarre for him to change positions for the sake of them acquiring another catcher...... but how in the bleepin-bleep do you code that into a computer's AI???? Let's not forget, the initial reason of your post wasn't, "why would the dodgers want contreras if they already have smith." The initial post was, "why would the dodgers trade the farm for contreras and then option him to AAA." Well, they didn't option him to AAA. He was on injury rehab. Only after we established that did we then shift our anger to the secondary point. And I do agree, this would be a bizarre scenario IRL...... but there's just some human common sense stuff that IMO is impossible to code into a game. This isn't Will Smith and Willson Contreras to the computer. To the computer, they are just numbers. On this topic though, IRL there was an article I read a day or two ago saying the Mets and Astros were both "in" on the Contreras trade rumors. However, both teams were concerned how Contreras would or wouldn't mesh with their pitching staffs on-the-fly, but at the end of the day they still want his bat. That kinda-sorta-maybe sounds a little like your scenario. Yeah the Dodgers already have Smith, but they of course want to add another bat to the lineup. So.......

07-28-2022, 10:26 AM	#18
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 9,885 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Brandon Inge moved from catcher to 3B in the prime of his career. Brandon's mom told me to post this, as even if I didn't think he was a superstar, he was a Hall of Famer in her book.

07-28-2022, 10:28 AM	#19
BIG17EASY Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,291	If you want a game that mimics real life, play Strat-O-Matic. If you want a game that uses real players but creates fictional results, play OOTP. It's really as simple as that. Expecting OOTP to happen exactly as real life does (or as we think real life should) is going to lead to a lot of frustration.

07-28-2022, 10:40 AM	#20
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 15,843	I mean, just last year we had Trea Turner dealt at the deadline and shifted to 2B, Bryant dealt and shifted to basically a fulltime OF, although both obviously had played there more recently than Smith had played 3B. And both deals were shifting the "new guy" to a new spot, rather than shifting someone else to another spot. To me, the flaws in the above deal are: -LAD shouldn't deal someone like Gonsolin at the deadline, even if they're getting Contreras back -Smith probably shouldn't be rated much at 3B given how little he has played there recently. The issue about who should or shouldn't have experience at a position is always one of those weird things. If you rate guys badly and give no experience, the AI gets really tight on roster moves. But if you give more experience, you might get the above where guys shift over too easily. The other issue we do try to prevent, but it's always hard to balance. Like, I think we would all say if the Cubs came to LAD and asked for Gonsolin they would laugh them out the door. But if CHC asked for Tyler Anderson, I'm pretty sure the Dodgers wouldn't care that he's arguably pitching better than Gonsolin and wouldn't think twice about including him in a deal.