What do you do with great pitchers sucking?

jpeters1734 · 07-22-2022, 11:51 PM

I'm a bit at a loss. I'm halfway through my season I. I have among the best bullpen in the league with 3 relievers having a 70+ overall. My best reliever is blowing save after save and just cannot pitch a clean outing. What do you do with great pitchers sucking?

silentrob · 07-23-2022, 01:29 AM

Are the pitchers pitching poorly, getting unlucky, or getting let down by weak defense?

If it's either of the last 2, I roll with them. If it's the first, well, that's tougher.

BBGiovanni · 07-23-2022, 03:18 AM

Be aware of the ground ball/flyball mix too, if you have extreme GB pitchers and bad infielders, or ex flyball pitchers in a teeny park like PHI/CIN those flies are headed out of town.

Pelican · 07-24-2022, 10:50 AM

When you say 70+, I gather you are using the 20-80 scale. If so, are you saying the average of Control, Movement, and Stuff is that high? The reason I ask is that there seem to be different tendencies, if a reliever is strongest in one (or two) of the categories. I can grasp the guy who throws heat but lacks control (Mitch Williams). And I can see how guys with tons of movement could befuddle sluggers (at least until that slider didn’t slide….). What baffles me is how guys with great Stuff can get beat up like a piñata.

Also, are you a fan of L/R matchups? I am. I always have a nasty “situational lefty”, and frequently a “situational righty” as well. I never play with the three-batter minimum, so that in the late innings, I can bring in those specialists, even if they only face one or two hitters.

One other thing is a personal hunch, that some relievers are better than others at coming into a tough situation with men on base. Many closers have become accustomed to starting an inning (usually the ninth), plenty of warm-up, no baserunners. Their job is to lock down 1-2-3, without having to worry about runners on base. They may not fare as well, coming into a bases loaded, none out situation.

Do you assign roles to your bullpen? I like the OOTP use of a “Stopper” option. For me that is usually a power pitcher with excellent stuff, to challenge hitters. But other managers might prefer a dude with pinpoint control, or lots of movement. The AI seems to respect bullpen management, when you assign roles and set strategy.

Fatigue is definitely a concern. As IRL, when that starter breaks down, and you have to go to your bullpen early, that takes its toll. In my experience, tired relievers are not as effective, and, the higher the fatigue, the worse it can be. I monitor the cumulative overall pitch count for my ‘pen. A guy who can’t throw strikes may throw 30 or 40 pitches in an inning, even if he is “effectively wild”. With typical reliever stamina of 10-25, he is probably done for several days. Which means, in DH leagues, you may need to carry 8, 9, 10 RP.

billyray1984 · 07-25-2022, 12:49 PM

Is this just bullpen related or are you having the same issue with starters ?

Bullpen arms are though to evaluate due to the variance associated with the relatively small amount of innings they pitch each year. Are their peripherals (FIP-, SIERA, K-BB%, BABIP, etc.) any good ? Did they come back from injury ?

When guys are struggling, I tend to have them pitch in lower leverage situation and replace them with other arms who are doing better. Apart from the stopper/closer, my bullpen is usually prety fluid year to year, or even during the season. I think this mirrors what MLB teams are doing nowadays where pretty much nobody is guaranteed a spot unless they are an ace.

Syd Thrift · 07-25-2022, 04:49 PM

Sample size is probably the biggest thing. How often is “save after save”? I have to say that for a relief pitcher, a few bad innings can skew a record way more than with a starter, so there’s that to watch out for. Otherwise, what do their peripherals look like? Pitchers in OOTP basically influence the Three True Outcomes, so if your guy is striking batters out, not walking them, and not getting HRs but just getting singled to death, this is probably bad luck or at least a combination of luck, park factors, and defense - that is, a lot of things that he’s not in control of.

Beyond that, your scouting might not be 100% accurate, or the guy in question took a ratings hit right after he was last scouted, or for whatever reason a high rating in whatever he has a high rating in doesn’t play in your league. One other thing to be aware of is that pitchers who only throw two pitches can be outstanding relievers but will wilt the second time through the lineup.

Pelican · 07-26-2022, 03:46 PM

Maybe your disappointing guys are on my fantasy team. I had Kershaw a few years back, when he could not get anyone out for the first half of the season. He positively stunk, and he was my first-round selection. Yeah, relatively small sample size, but probably a dozen games started, pretty close to zero points for the Dancing Bears.. My closer this year (we re-draft each year) is Josh Hader, and he has clearly been afflicted by this curse. Again a very small sample size, but the negative points from hits, runs, walks, blown saves, losses are staggering. I know it doesn’t solve your problem; but it does prove even dominant guys can yack it up for weeks at a time. It’s why they play the games out.

Hoiles · 07-28-2022, 01:48 PM

Perhaps your bullpen is overworked. Often, it's not just a matter of having relievers with the best ratings, but you need to make sure they're well-rested too. A rested pitcher with low ratings is often better than a fatigued one with high ratings, which makes some sense. Maybe go the TB route and cycle your relievers up and down from the minors in the bullpen meat-grinder.

Also, a catcher with higher catching ability helps too.

07-22-2022, 11:51 PM	#1
jpeters1734 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Juust a bit outside... Posts: 6,315	What do you do with great pitchers sucking? I'm a bit at a loss. I'm halfway through my season I. I have among the best bullpen in the league with 3 relievers having a 70+ overall. My best reliever is blowing save after save and just cannot pitch a clean outing. What do you do with great pitchers sucking? __________________ "Cannonball Coming!" Go Bucs!! Founder and League Caretaker of the Professional Baseball Circuit, www.probaseballcircuit.com An Un-Official Guide to Minor League Management in OOTP 21 Ratings Scale Conversion Cross-Reference Cheat Sheet

07-23-2022, 03:18 AM	#3
BBGiovanni All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Republic of California Posts: 1,911	Be aware of the ground ball/flyball mix too, if you have extreme GB pitchers and bad infielders, or ex flyball pitchers in a teeny park like PHI/CIN those flies are headed out of town. __________________ Let's Go (San Jose) Giants, Let's Go Mets! Current Project: WBAT/AABBA: Organized Base Ball And the "New Normal" World Baseball Aid Tournament 2023 trophy round underway!

07-24-2022, 10:50 AM	#4
Pelican Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: Wilmington, Delaware Posts: 3,284	When you say 70+, I gather you are using the 20-80 scale. If so, are you saying the average of Control, Movement, and Stuff is that high? The reason I ask is that there seem to be different tendencies, if a reliever is strongest in one (or two) of the categories. I can grasp the guy who throws heat but lacks control (Mitch Williams). And I can see how guys with tons of movement could befuddle sluggers (at least until that slider didn’t slide….). What baffles me is how guys with great Stuff can get beat up like a piñata. Also, are you a fan of L/R matchups? I am. I always have a nasty “situational lefty”, and frequently a “situational righty” as well. I never play with the three-batter minimum, so that in the late innings, I can bring in those specialists, even if they only face one or two hitters. One other thing is a personal hunch, that some relievers are better than others at coming into a tough situation with men on base. Many closers have become accustomed to starting an inning (usually the ninth), plenty of warm-up, no baserunners. Their job is to lock down 1-2-3, without having to worry about runners on base. They may not fare as well, coming into a bases loaded, none out situation. Do you assign roles to your bullpen? I like the OOTP use of a “Stopper” option. For me that is usually a power pitcher with excellent stuff, to challenge hitters. But other managers might prefer a dude with pinpoint control, or lots of movement. The AI seems to respect bullpen management, when you assign roles and set strategy. Fatigue is definitely a concern. As IRL, when that starter breaks down, and you have to go to your bullpen early, that takes its toll. In my experience, tired relievers are not as effective, and, the higher the fatigue, the worse it can be. I monitor the cumulative overall pitch count for my ‘pen. A guy who can’t throw strikes may throw 30 or 40 pitches in an inning, even if he is “effectively wild”. With typical reliever stamina of 10-25, he is probably done for several days. Which means, in DH leagues, you may need to carry 8, 9, 10 RP. Last edited by Pelican; 07-24-2022 at 10:56 AM.

07-26-2022, 03:46 PM	#7
Pelican Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: Wilmington, Delaware Posts: 3,284	Maybe your disappointing guys are on my fantasy team. I had Kershaw a few years back, when he could not get anyone out for the first half of the season. He positively stunk, and he was my first-round selection. Yeah, relatively small sample size, but probably a dozen games started, pretty close to zero points for the Dancing Bears.. My closer this year (we re-draft each year) is Josh Hader, and he has clearly been afflicted by this curse. Again a very small sample size, but the negative points from hits, runs, walks, blown saves, losses are staggering. I know it doesn’t solve your problem; but it does prove even dominant guys can yack it up for weeks at a time. It’s why they play the games out. Last edited by Pelican; 07-26-2022 at 03:48 PM.

07-23-2022, 01:29 AM	#2
silentrob Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Kalispell, MT Posts: 233	Are the pitchers pitching poorly, getting unlucky, or getting let down by weak defense? If it's either of the last 2, I roll with them. If it's the first, well, that's tougher.

07-25-2022, 12:49 PM	#5
billyray1984 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 218	Is this just bullpen related or are you having the same issue with starters ? Bullpen arms are though to evaluate due to the variance associated with the relatively small amount of innings they pitch each year. Are their peripherals (FIP-, SIERA, K-BB%, BABIP, etc.) any good ? Did they come back from injury ? When guys are struggling, I tend to have them pitch in lower leverage situation and replace them with other arms who are doing better. Apart from the stopper/closer, my bullpen is usually prety fluid year to year, or even during the season. I think this mirrors what MLB teams are doing nowadays where pretty much nobody is guaranteed a spot unless they are an ace.

07-28-2022, 01:48 PM	#8
Hoiles All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 574	Perhaps your bullpen is overworked. Often, it's not just a matter of having relievers with the best ratings, but you need to make sure they're well-rested too. A rested pitcher with low ratings is often better than a fatigued one with high ratings, which makes some sense. Maybe go the TB route and cycle your relievers up and down from the minors in the bullpen meat-grinder. Also, a catcher with higher catching ability helps too.