Should We Be Worried About Perfect Team...

[jcard]

Originally Posted by silvam14

Precisely. Agree 100%.

BTW. What does “tautological” mean? Lol


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Of or relating to a tautology.

(I really hope at least one other person appreciates the humor in that definition)

[jcard]

Originally Posted by pauwoo

Years ago, my daughter got hooked on one of their micro-transaction games called, “Derby Days”… I mean hooked, hooked - which is mostly my fault for letting her play on the iPad. It was scary when my bank called to confirm a ~$300 gem (or maybe it was carrots?) purchase she attempted (I was refunded), that’s for sure. And, I realize that this reply, especially after I trashed the Doors, likely comes off as flippant. That’s not my intent - these companies, and these mind-numbing, soul crushing, micro-transaction farming/horse breeding/etc games are a pox on all our houses.

For $300 you should be talking KARATS. If my experience is typical, sheÂ’ll learn soon enough- they all do.

[chargerrich]

Originally Posted by kidd_05_u2

Also, PT is a very basic and featureless game mode. It is hard for me to believe that its development is taking massive resources away from the base game.

It will not stay that way... mark my words. It will take more and more resources each year and will definitely continue to impact the single player.

This trend in gaming is a blight and will only get worse.

[chargerrich]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Move to SI? end of the game

Forced out of SI? end of the game

Face-gen type feature? end of the game. must concentrate on the core game

MLB licensing? end of game.

3d? yep, end of the game. More eye candy just like face gen! What about baseball????

PT? end of game

Despite this yearly ritual, the sky still hasn't fallen.

Same thing, different year.

You are missing one critical point here... that IMO completely invalidates this argument.

All these non-PT additions were not - IN ANY WAY - created for the SOLE purpose of driving microtransactions. This trend is so obvious, that for OOTP to NOT fall down this path would be the rare exception and any fan of this game should be - at least - concerned.

[spleen1015]

This argument is like every other argument on the internet....

For me, I have no reason not to trust what Markus says. He hasn't lied or been deceitful for as long as I've played this game, 22 years. I don't believe he'll start now.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I think everyone here makes good points but I think they should all be constructive. That being said yes com2us
does frighten me as a company

I don't disagree with this statement but... I also can't be bothered to worry about it until I am given a reason to do so. Worst case scenario if they pulled the plug today is I play v23 as long as it works on a computer I own.


For now Markus said he would be running things pretty much as he always has. I haven't seen a thing to contradict that.

I'm not the most trusting of bean counters in suits either. They really can make some idiotic decisions based on making a nickel today with no thought it will cost them a dollar next year. But I guess they are always looking to sell out of whatever they own so there's a good chance next year they no longer are involved and don't care about that dollar. There is nothing I can do about this so no reason to spend any time thinking about it. If it were to happen I would of course be saddened.

Markus? I'll trust him and Matt to take the game in whatever direction they decide. I, like anyone here, may have some say in where it goes via suggestions but, that's all they are, suggestions. I've never cared much what end of the game they work on. I just look forward to each new version excited to see what they have done.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by chargerrich

You are missing one critical point here... that IMO completely invalidates this argument.

All these non-PT additions were not - IN ANY WAY - created for the SOLE purpose of driving microtransactions. This trend is so obvious, that for OOTP to NOT fall down this path would be the rare exception and any fan of this game should be - at least - concerned.

And there are no microtransactions in OOTP proper. So what exactly did I miss?

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by silvam14

Precisely. Agree 100%.

BTW. What does “tautological” mean? Lol


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Yeah, I added emojis to my post using the Tapatalk app from my iPhone. The "tautological" message is probably what's appearing instead of the emojis. lol 😂

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by Sweed

And there are no microtransactions in OOTP proper. So what exactly did I miss?

Maybe he's referring to Perfect Team.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by ashantewarrier

Maybe he's referring to Perfect Team.

Yeah, wasn't really sure how to take the comment? My point was all of the changes over the years, that many said would be detrimental, simply did not turn out that way. Part of that point was OOTP proper did not lose anything, IMHO, with the addition of PT. And it certainly didn't add microtransactions as Markus had said it would not.

Not sure what PT and MT specifically has to do with it other than being in the list as one of the "ruination, doom etc. forecasts"?

I'll stand by everything in that list getting the "ruination, doom" comments that have failed to materialize.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Yeah, wasn't really sure how to take the comment? My point was all of the changes over the years, that many said would be detrimental, simply did not turn out that way. Part of that point was OOTP proper did not lose anything, IMHO, with the addition of PT. And it certainly didn't add microtransactions as Markus had said it would not.

Not sure what PT and MT specifically has to do with it other than being in the list as one of the "ruination, doom etc. forecasts"?

I'll stand by everything in that list getting the "ruination, doom" comments that have failed to materialize.

It’s pure moral hazard stuff - it could happen, therefore let’s worry about it as if it’s actually happening.

And again, I have made this point many, many times: OOTP does face a bit of a crisis in the medium to long term future that it’s not physics based. As we understand the game better and better from a physics perspective, that’s the direction the stat head stuff is going to take us, and at some point they’re going to have to either rewrite the game engine to be physics based or slowly fade away into the sunset. There’s really no knowing what’s going to happen there, although I can say right now that a physics based game will wreak havoc on historical play to the point that that may not be a viable option anymore. That’s a real heat-death of OOTP thing, much more than adding the kind of gacha add-on that many major US sports titles have already.

The other issue, of course, and a big one that we here also have zero control over, is that baseball itself has a fanbase that’s trending older and older. There’s not a thing we can do about that, of course, and if the game itself becomes too niche to support a product like OOTP, then… well, we’ll always have 23 or 26 or whatever the last version of the game will be.

The answer here isn’t to worry about things you have no control over, it’s to embrace what’s here right now and try to steer things in small directions that lend themselves to better playability, etc. At most, if you want a different kind of game, learn to program and write that different kind of game. Markus was a relatively inexperienced programmer IIRC when he started work on OOTP. It can be done. It wouldn’t be easy of course but few worthwhile endeavors in life are.

[BPS]

Originally Posted by jcard

...Characterizing OOTPD as being profit-maximizing is not pejorative , but simply tautological when discussing any company in a market economy.

Not a tautology at all.

One might assume businesses maximize profits in order to simplify some discussions about their behavior. But, such an assumption might lead to invalid conclusions. In any case, such an assumption is contrary to the behavior of many (most?) businesses in the real world. Many businesses have more than the simple goal of earning the most profit possible: some businesses want to sell a good product, treat their employees well, gain public praise, earn the respect of their customers, and other things. And many businesses willingly give up some profit for these things.

Statements that "businesses necessarily maximize profits and anyone who says otherwise is naive or ignorant" serve a rhetorical function: to justify behavior that might actually might be harmful to some people and is not necessary to the survival of the firm. It might be simple greed, something "the market" does not demand. As used by some, the function of such statements is to say, "Hey, don't blame me...it was the market that forced me to sell a bad product or to treat my employees badly." But, no, sometimes it was the person who behaved badly, and they should take responsibility for their bad behavior.

While "the market" or, more precisely, capitalism does strongly push businesses in certain directions, most businesses have the space to make choices in how they behave. They should be held accountable...blamed or perhaps praised...for their choices.

[Syd Thrift]

That nice from a philosophical standard, but this post has nothing to do with that. Instead it’s making bizarre inferences from other games - particularly Madden - that were in steep decline long before they instituted their version of Perfect Team, and then deciding that because this parallel might exist, that makes this particular old man yells at cloud moment more intelligible than the similar ones we had about 3D and FaceGen and, hell, if we want to go back far enough, changing the pitcher model to being based on the 3TO.

Change happens. In the meantime, let’s concentrate on changes that hurt the core offering when they actually hurt the core offering.

[jcard]

Originally Posted by BPS

Not a tautology at all.

One might assume businesses maximize profits in order to simplify some discussions about their behavior. But, such an assumption might lead to invalid conclusions. In any case, such an assumption is contrary to the behavior of many (most?) businesses in the real world. Many businesses have more than the simple goal of earning the most profit possible: some businesses want to sell a good product, treat their employees well, gain public praise, earn the respect of their customers, and other things. And many businesses willingly give up some profit for these things.

Statements that "businesses necessarily maximize profits and anyone who says otherwise is naive or ignorant" serve a rhetorical function: to justify behavior that might actually might be harmful to some people and is not necessary to the survival of the firm. It might be simple greed, something "the market" does not demand. As used by some, the function of such statements is to say, "Hey, don't blame me...it was the market that forced me to sell a bad product or to treat my employees badly." But, no, sometimes it was the person who behaved badly, and they should take responsibility for their bad behavior.

While "the market" or, more precisely, capitalism does strongly push businesses in certain directions, most businesses have the space to make choices in how they behave. They should be held accountable...blamed or perhaps praised...for their choices.

Actually, I am very much in agreement with you here. I used the term profit-maximizing here to as unambiguously as possible communicate that- contrary to the misinterpretation of my earlier words by a different poster- I was not rejecting the right of the company to act out of a profit motive- even (hypothetically) exclusively out of such a narrow interest. I was using more of a Microeconomics 101 model than one that literally intended to encompass the diversity of market actors. Or, for that matter, my own feelings. I share the sentiments that you seem to be expressing- generally speaking, capitalism requires at least a profit-concern from its producers, but it leaves a large degree of freedom to choose how that interest is pursued and promoted in relation to any number of other values and objectives. I feel that it is in this discretionary behavior that the character of the actor is revealed.
I hope I did not misrepresent your argument, and that my own thinking does not now seem so shallow as perhaps originally taken.

[jcard]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

That nice from a philosophical standard, but this post has nothing to do with that. Instead itÂ’s making bizarre inferences from other games - particularly Madden - that were in steep decline long before they instituted their version of Perfect Team, and then deciding that because this parallel might exist, that makes this particular old man yells at cloud moment more intelligible than the similar ones we had about 3D and FaceGen and, hell, if we want to go back far enough, changing the pitcher model to being based on the 3TO.

Change happens. In the meantime, letÂ’s concentrate on changes that hurt the core offering when they actually hurt the core offering.

I am not sure if you are referring to my post. I would like to think not, because literally zero of what is said above describes my thoughts. For example, I have never played Madden- and therefore can assure you that I was not making any inferences (bizarre or otherwise) from whatever has transpired regarding that franchise.
Also, for the record, I like to think that I am not quite yet an old man (though perhaps at least sometimes a cloud-yeller).

[chargerrich]

Originally Posted by ashantewarrier

Maybe he's referring to Perfect Team.

Of course I am... and of course he knows this. He is being pedantic to try and solidify his point. If you think that not ONE HOUR or more of dev time, resource, money, et al was not given to PT at the expense of "OOTP proper" then you scream as loud as you want in your echo chamber, I on the other hand know better and have voted with my wallet and keyboard.

Take care..

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by chargerrich

Of course I am... and of course he knows this. He is being pedantic to try and solidify his point. If you think that not ONE HOUR or more of dev time, resource, money, et al was not given to PT at the expense of "OOTP proper" then you scream as loud as you want in your echo chamber, I on the other hand know better and have voted with my wallet and keyboard.

Take care..

I notice you forget to mention the things that have improved because of PT. But none of that matters, right? Life isn't always black and white, or either\or.

I have to believe you know that but choose to ignore it? Otherwise....

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by chargerrich

Of course I am... and of course he knows this. He is being pedantic to try and solidify his point. If you think that not ONE HOUR or more of dev time, resource, money, et al was not given to PT at the expense of "OOTP proper" then you scream as loud as you want in your echo chamber, I on the other hand know better and have voted with my wallet and keyboard.

Take care..

Hey. It’s your right to not buy if you don’t like it. I’m sure OOTP would rather have your business, but to think they have to justify every hour being worked on to you is absurd.


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[RubeBaker]

Originally Posted by silvam14

Hey. It’s your right to not buy if you don’t like it. I’m sure OOTP would rather have your business, but to think they have to justify every hour being worked on to you is absurd.


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This. 100%. I don't know about you, but I have grown awfully tired of the whining that's been frequenting the forums in recent months.

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by RubeBaker

This. 100%. I don't know about you, but I have grown awfully tired of the whining that's been frequenting the forums in recent months.

I agree.


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