Petition to remove the "September stamina drain"

[brotherblues]

It's time to say goodbye to the exaggerated energy drain for position players in September

It's bs and it leads to more injuries in September than in other months. Which is unrealistic as September is the month with the lowest amount of injuries irl.


https://cdn.mdedge.com/files/s3fs-pu...o045030152.PDF


"The month with the most injuries to MLB players was
April, while the fewest number of injuries occurred
in September"
- Posner M, Cameron KL, Wolf JM, Belmont PJ Jr, Owens BD.
Epidemiology of Major League Baseball injuries. Am J Sports
Med. 2011;39(8):1676-1680

[fredbeene]

Originally Posted by brotherblues

It's time to say goodbye to the exaggerated energy drain for position players in September

It's bs and it leads to more injuries in September than in other months. Which is unrealistic as September is the month with the lowest amount of injuries irl.


https://cdn.mdedge.com/files/s3fs-pu...o045030152.PDF


"The month with the most injuries to MLB players was
April, while the fewest number of injuries occurred
in September"
- Posner M, Cameron KL, Wolf JM, Belmont PJ Jr, Owens BD.
Epidemiology of Major League Baseball injuries. Am J Sports
Med. 2011;39(8):1676-1680

Can you please show me how your ran a report across multiple seasons/sims to generate the data for excessive sept injuries comparing to each other month?

Manual counts entered into spreadsheet does not qualify.

[brotherblues]

Originally Posted by fredbeene

Can you please show me how your ran a report across multiple seasons/sims to generate the data for excessive sept injuries comparing to each other month?

Manual counts entered into spreadsheet does not qualify.

I thought it was generally agreed that in ootp, playing "tired" directly increased chance of injury. Given that the game is coded so that dugouts need oxigen tanks once the calendar turns to September, it seems reasonable to believe there'd be more injuries that month.

Anyway, my complaint is the over-the-top stamina drain in September. The increased injuries are just one (big) side effect, and it directly contradicts the data from the study I cited.

[PSUColonel]

I have never been aware of any type of September fatigue built in to OOTP??

[Tiger Fan]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I have never been aware of any type of September fatigue built in to OOTP??

Nor have I. First time hearing this and never noticed a rash of September injuries in any of the games I played.

[venflaalachi]

Originally Posted by Tiger Fan

Nor have I. First time hearing this and never noticed a rash of September injuries in any of the games I played.

The only time I notice September/last month fatigue in my leagues is when a team is in the middle of a playoff race since they basically never rest their starters while they are still in the race. That makes sense to me, since for important games you want your best 8 + SP out on the field.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I have never been aware of any type of September fatigue built in to OOTP??

I’m pretty positive that there’s not. What I do see:

- As-played schedules can be pretty lumpy and asymmetrical when some teams have to make up a bunch of rainouts and others do not… I know I’m seeing a lot of doubleheaders and a lot of teams who are well rested playing exhausted teams as a result

- Injured lists are generally at their highest by this point so some teams are going to be scraping the barrel and sometimes operating without adequate backups… often the backups wind up playing so much (also due to the above issue) that they get tired, too

- Guys who’ve been sitting at like 90% for the past month just need a couple days off but you can’t really give them that when you’re in a pennant race so they just get more and more tired or you have to sit them at key points

- There’s also asymmetry between teams with no hope starting fresh, rested players because they can, because they want to try out some youngsters, and so on, although IME this gets more than made up for by the talent drop-off

- Comfirmation bias: you notice when you’re in a pennant race and a key starter goes down. You don’t necessarily notice so much when this happens in July and prevents you from being in that race in the first place

Really, I think the issue is less “everyone gets more tired” so much as it is “some teams are more tired than others”, to which I say, welcome to baseball. I just don’t see an actual “September modifier” and quite frankly it’s asinine to think that the devs would put something like that in all by itself. Why would they do this? What purpose does the dev team have to add in extra, unexplained modifiers that only make things more complicated when trying to figure out statistical totals and so on? And why chalk this up to a design decision when it can so easily be explained by things that are, well, not designed at all?

[brotherblues]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

I’m pretty positive that there’s not. What I do see:

- As-played schedules can be pretty lumpy and asymmetrical when some teams have to make up a bunch of rainouts and others do not… I know I’m seeing a lot of doubleheaders and a lot of teams who are well rested playing exhausted teams as a result

- Injured lists are generally at their highest by this point so some teams are going to be scraping the barrel and sometimes operating without adequate backups… often the backups wind up playing so much (also due to the above issue) that they get tired, too

- Guys who’ve been sitting at like 90% for the past month just need a couple days off but you can’t really give them that when you’re in a pennant race so they just get more and more tired or you have to sit them at key points

- There’s also asymmetry between teams with no hope starting fresh, rested players because they can, because they want to try out some youngsters, and so on, although IME this gets more than made up for by the talent drop-off

- Comfirmation bias: you notice when you’re in a pennant race and a key starter goes down. You don’t necessarily notice so much when this happens in July and prevents you from being in that race in the first place

Really, I think the issue is less “everyone gets more tired” so much as it is “some teams are more tired than others”, to which I say, welcome to baseball. I just don’t see an actual “September modifier” and quite frankly it’s asinine to think that the devs would put something like that in all by itself. Why would they do this? What purpose does the dev team have to add in extra, unexplained modifiers that only make things more complicated when trying to figure out statistical totals and so on? And why chalk this up to a design decision when it can so easily be explained by things that are, well, not designed at all?

Alright, I can take most of that. What I thought of as a "September modifier" is more easily explained as just the effect of teams in a pennant race not resting their players.

That still means players play more tired in September, and if it's true that in the game tiredness increases chance of injury, then there are more injuries in September than other months.

Of course, if there's no correlation between tiredness and injury... then I got nothing, and my complaint is baseless in its entirety.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by brotherblues

Alright, I can take most of that. What I thought of as a "September modifier" is more easily explained as just the effect of teams in a pennant race not resting their players.

That still means players play more tired in September, and if it's true that in the game tiredness increases chance of injury, then there are more injuries in September than other months.

Of course, if there's no correlation between tiredness and injury... then I got nothing, and my complaint is baseless in its entirety.

Are you saying you don't think fatigue should increase the risk of injury? Because that's exactly how real life fatigue works.

[brotherblues]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

Are you saying you don't think fatigue should increase the risk of injury? Because that's exactly how real life fatigue works.

I would have thought so too until I saw September has the lowest amount of injuries of any month in real life. I'd guess it's because a baseball positional player's fatigue is different than fatigue in other sports.

[Marinersfan51]

Originally Posted by brotherblues

I would have thought so too until I saw September has the lowest amount of injuries of any month in real life. I'd guess it's because a baseball positional player's fatigue is different than fatigue in other sports.

How much of the real life effect is due to teams not in playoff races resting their players more often or playing younger players (who tend to be less injury prone)?

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by brotherblues

I would have thought so too until I saw September has the lowest amount of injuries of any month in real life. I'd guess it's because a baseball positional player's fatigue is different than fatigue in other sports.

You have to remember that over the entire scope of 30 teams, LOTS of players are actually playing less due to September call ups and teams being out of contention. Only teams fighting for playoff position might be increasing playing time for some guys. So you can't use league-wide injury rates to assess how injuries are related to fatigue.

Perhaps OOTP pushes too many players to play more often in September, which increases fatigue on a greater scale and therefore increases injuries. But to say that fatigue doesn't increase injuries in real life just goes against everything we know about how the human body works.

[quillenl]

Is it possible, that due to expanded rosters, there are MLB injuries that are not tracked due to not needing to replace that player with a call up? This would be an effect that would not translate into OOTP where you will see the injury regardless of your decision to move the player or not.

Also, my assumption in real life baseball has always been that there is a pool of players hiding injuries they think they can play through that show themselves soon enough. I'd expect that to be far less the case towards the end of the season when players on many non playoff teams are phoning it in and just telling the manager they need to sit (old and/or semi injured guys. Maybe that old guy was willing to fight through it in May, but is going to take a couple games off in September. Those 15 guys that got a call up... I am betting it is a TINY percentage of them admitting to potential minor injuries... and that probably tweaks the numbers also. I don't care how good medicine gets, a player with a minor injury (anything he can play through) can hide it if he feels like his career needs it.

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by quillenl

Is it possible, that due to expanded rosters, there are MLB injuries that are not tracked due to not needing to replace that player with a call up? This would be an effect that would not translate into OOTP where you will see the injury regardless of your decision to move the player or not.

Also, my assumption in real life baseball has always been that there is a pool of players hiding injuries they think they can play through that show themselves soon enough. I'd expect that to be far less the case towards the end of the season when players on many non playoff teams are phoning it in and just telling the manager they need to sit (old and/or semi injured guys. Maybe that old guy was willing to fight through it in May, but is going to take a couple games off in September. Those 15 guys that got a call up... I am betting it is a TINY percentage of them admitting to potential minor injuries... and that probably tweaks the numbers also. I don't care how good medicine gets, a player with a minor injury (anything he can play through) can hide it if he feels like his career needs it.

You'd probably get a combo of people trucking it through to finish the season, either to push for a playoff drive, or knowing that they have a few months off after anyways. That, plus up until a couple years ago, teams already had up anyone from the minors, so I know you'd get a handful of people who got hurt but would just sit out without an actual injured list stay. I know at one point I was in a fantasy league where we had to wait for guys to go on the IL before we could use it in our league, and there were some guys in the last week of the season that never got placed there and just skipped their start.

[brotherblues]

I've enjoyed reading all the counterpoints. Some very cool and interesting points.

I drop all my gripes in the matter.

Happy simming to all.

[quillenl]

Originally Posted by brotherblues

I've enjoyed reading all the counterpoints. Some very cool and interesting points.

I drop all my gripes in the matter.

Happy simming to all.

I know nothing but assumptions that are different than yours. At some point I, or someone else, will test and see if we can confirm either way. Should not be too hard to test I would think if we are just looking at fatigue levels of position players. Just because you are the only one in a position doesn't mean you are wrong. I'm curious myself as I typically play with Fatigue set to High... so this would be good to know and odd to have missed.

[GoPedro99]

One other factor to consider is up until a couple years ago, September rosters could be up to 40 people. Now the expanded rosters is only 28. So that could be part of the real life numbers being what they are. Wouldnt be shocked to see september injuries start to rise in coming years

[Pelican]

It has always bothered me that MLB rosters would expand in September, just in time for the pennant race. No other major sport works this way. Yeah, I get the concept of letting young players get MLB experience, once their minor league seasons are over. But all too often a hot streak by a September call-up affects the pennant race - and then that phenom can’t play in the post-season (is ineligible, under standard rules).

My solution is to allow expanded rosters in the Spring, until Memorial Day, and not in September. This was done this year, due to the lockout; but at least the option is there in OOTP 23. I’ve also pushed the minor league seasons back a few weeks, so most playoffs end in late September. In April, minor league players would stay in Florida and Arizona for extended Spring Training, now with their assigned clubs. A few extra players (I use 28-man rosters until June) get a chance to show their stuff with the MLB club. It really helps to bring pitchers along
slowly early. Just a thought.

[Unlike my (indoors) cat, I am allowed to think outside the box!]

[Scipio Africanus]

Originally Posted by brotherblues

I've enjoyed reading all the counterpoints. Some very cool and interesting points.

I drop all my gripes in the matter.

You can't do that. You have to stick to your original position, argue it for a while, and then start insulting people who disagree with you. Clearly you don't know how to do the internet.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Pelican

It has always bothered me that MLB rosters would expand in September, just in time for the pennant race. No other major sport works this way. Yeah, I get the concept of letting young players get MLB experience, once their minor league seasons are over. But all too often a hot streak by a September call-up affects the pennant race - and then that phenom can’t play in the post-season (is ineligible, under standard rules).

My solution is to allow expanded rosters in the Spring, until Memorial Day, and not in September. This was done this year, due to the lockout; but at least the option is there in OOTP 23. I’ve also pushed the minor league seasons back a few weeks, so most playoffs end in late September. In April, minor league players would stay in Florida and Arizona for extended Spring Training, now with their assigned clubs. A few extra players (I use 28-man rosters until June) get a chance to show their stuff with the MLB club. It really helps to bring pitchers along
slowly early. Just a thought.

[Unlike my (indoors) cat, I am allowed to think outside the box!]

They did change the rule in 2019(?) so that it’s no longer 40 players but 28.