AI Trade "LOGIC"

[ashantewarrier]

This thread reminds me of the old days, back in the early 2000’s. Pointless griping. This would be more productive if this were posted in the bugs forum.


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[Syd Thrift]

One thing I should add too with “old blood vs new” is that a big part of why I kind of prefer the newer players commenting is that a lot of the people who’ve been around forever don’t really full accept the statistical revolution in baseball in the first place and certainly don’t have that same tendency to use stats to back up their arguments. There was a guy who I was very sad to see go for example (he does still post on the Reddit sub a lot) who at least brought stats into things, and a couple of conversations I’ve had with relatively new players have been great. Foolish Baseball runs his what-ifs using OOTP and I have to admit that I’d be much, much more likely to be receptive to criticism from him than from the guys who, well, don’t back up their points with data.

And I mean, these discussions can be a good launching point for figuring out how to collect that data, what else we might need, and so on! But yeah, I want to hear newer people talk in here more; unfortunately I think message boards in general are old tech and so people aren’t fans so much (also, frankly, I think aspects of the board get very, very toxic towards younger gamers).

[Dave Stieb II]

I wasn't going to post on this thread - it kind of went of the rails of its original intent way, way, way back - but now I feel compelled to.
Raw data is great, obviously, if it can be provided.
But the areas of the game jimmysthebestcop is critical of do not lend themselves to providing raw data, only anecdotal.

I quote from one his posts.

Trading, free agents, contracts, rule 5, 40 man, GUI, stories, personalities, owner goals, owner budget, anything to do with the owner, anything to with the city or fanbase, the financial model

Of course, he went into greater detail in his posts but the absence of the ability to provide 'raw data' about these GM-related issues does not mean they are not areas of the game badly in need of attention. This has been pointed out by many others - long time OOTPers and more recent players - in multiple threads over the past few years.

Where I get off the bus is when the speculation starts about why these areas remain weak and unaddressed. I don't know and frankly, short of an explanation, I don't care.

The bottom line for me is the GM/management aspect of the game has needed real attention for some time, hasn't received it other than cosmetic changes, and is by far the weakest part of the game.

[wallewalls]

Originally Posted by ashantewarrier

Notice that the complaints are from those who’ve not been on the boards for that long. Interesting.

I suggest you folks with suggestions/complaints, post them to the bugs forum. Posting them here won’t help your cause and could be counterproductive.


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I always find it interesting that when people criticize the game, the amount of time the poster has been on the forums is usually brought up. As if it actually matters, or it's a badge of honor or something.

[jimmysthebestcop]

White Knights stand down and stand by.

usually white knighting of ootp going on

[MathBandit]

I think a lot of the issue here stems from people wanting OOTP AI GMs to act like real MLB GMs instead of wanting them to make correct decisions.

One thing I've seen in this thread and I see a lot is about trading players that were recently signed, but it also almost certainly should be happening much more often (and potentially would be, if it weren't for the fact the PA would be very unamused). I remember in the weeks leading up to OOTP23 a screenshot showcasing the new Shop Player feature included an example where the Guardians were shopping JRam and Texas offered up Seager, and there being complaints of it being bad AI to trade Seager shortly after signing him for JRam.

Is it likely that the Texas GM would trade off Seager for JRam if he had been called up by the Guardians prior to JRam's extension? Probably not. But I would also argue that it would be an indefensible baseball decision not to make that trade if you're Texas. If people already think the AI can't keep up with humans, wouldn't having them make trades that are absolute no-brainers (even if real GMs would be unwilling to make those same correct baseball decisions) be Step 1 to improving the AI? And yet time and time again people laugh at how easy it is for the Human GM in OOTP to ditch the bad contract they signed, while also criticizing the AI any time it does the same thing.

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by wallewalls

I always find it interesting that when people criticize the game, the amount of time the poster has been on the forums is usually brought up. As if it actually matters, or it's a badge of honor or something.

It does matter. Being a longtime customer of OOTP for almost 20’years, I’ve seen this game develop into the top sports simulation game bar none. While there will always be room for improvement, OOTP is light years away from what is was when I first started playing this game back in 2003. I am confident that the OOTP dev team will continue to work hard at improving this great game.


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[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by ashantewarrier

It does matter. Being a longtime customer of OOTP for almost 20’years, I’ve seen this game develop into the top sports simulation game bar none. While there will always be room for improvement, OOTP is light years away from what is was when I first started playing this game back in 2003. I am confident that the OOTP dev team will continue to work hard at improving this great game.


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In a lot ways we actually hold the game back by being happy to give our money every year based on loyalty. New people are demanding better.

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

In a lot ways we actually hold the game back by being happy to give our money every year based on loyalty. New people are demanding better.

And as I stated earlier, folks are well within their right to show their displeasure with OOTP by not purchasing the game. I know if I was as dissatisfied as some are in this thread I would have stopped buying OOTP.



I personally buy each version of the game expecting incremental improvements, and have been pleased with the results up until the release of OOTP23.



Getting back on topic, I was very much pleased with the trade A.I. in OOTP22. Was it perfect? No. But it was much improved over prior versions. I can't say much about OOTP23 as I am waiting for imminent patch releases before playing.



But to each his own.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Defending a game you don't own lmao

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

Defending a game you don't own lmao

I do own OOTP23. I've owned all versions since 2003. I'm an old-timer young fella.

You should post your issues/complaints/suggestions to the bugs forum.

[dsthomp]

"Issues/complaints/suggestions" are about design and implementation, not bugs.

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by dsthomp

"Issues/complaints/suggestions" are about design and implementation, not bugs.

Okay.

Good luck with that.


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[Karl Pagel Blues]

Not sure if the correct term to describe the overriding need to always get in the last word is 'narcissistic' or 'egomaniacal'.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by Karl Pagel Blues

Not sure if the correct term to describe the overriding need to always get in the last word is 'narcissistic' or 'egomaniacal'.

it boggles my mind when people defend so many aspects of OOTP like it is a perfect game or something.

A game can be flawed, have serious problems and still be fun/enjoyable and even good to certain people.

but not admitting the game has these problems when they are pointed out year after year on forums at least since ootp 18 version which is when i got here, boggles the mind,

blindly defending the game is the definition of white knighting.

you can literally claim a player off of waivers then trade him back to the team that waived him for a minor leaguer. no matter what settings are on its possible, just another example of broken stuff in the game that doesnt get looked at.

ootp most important thing is the sim engine cause it also drives PT. there is absolutely no way anything out of that category gets improved. organizational management/GM hasnt had a second pass since it was introduced.

the game plays exactly the same since at least ootp 18 with 0 changes to the management side of the game. just accept it and move on cause its FACTS.

dont defend the game cause you love when its broke in the management side of the game, just say you enjoy the game still and move on.

[MathBandit]

I must have downloaded a different game than JimmyTheBestCop did, since my copies have shown dramatic improvement to non-engine things in 21, again in 22, then again in 23. Weird that they release different versions to different people.

If you think it's exploitative that you can claim a player off of Waivers then trade him back to the team though, couldn't you just...not do that? Same with Rule 5 abuse of either claiming players then trading them, or trading prospects on the date of the Rule 5 draft to be able to claim them back.

If the game has obvious gamebreaking flaws between AI-AI interaction that you have to police and continuously undo AI moves, that's a big problem. But if you're saying that the game is broken because there's a hole in the fence that lets the human take a shortcut in the race track but none of the AI use the hole...then if you dip through the hole each lap and complain the race is too easy, that seems like a you problem.

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

I must have downloaded a different game than JimmyTheBestCop did, since my copies have shown dramatic improvement to non-engine things in 21, again in 22, then again in 23. Weird that they release different versions to different people.

If you think it's exploitative that you can claim a player off of Waivers then trade him back to the team though, couldn't you just...not do that? Same with Rule 5 abuse of either claiming players then trading them, or trading prospects on the date of the Rule 5 draft to be able to claim them back.

If the game has obvious gamebreaking flaws between AI-AI interaction that you have to police and continuously undo AI moves, that's a big problem. But if you're saying that the game is broken because there's a hole in the fence that lets the human take a shortcut in the race track but none of the AI use the hole...then if you dip through the hole each lap and complain the race is too easy, that seems like a you problem.

Hear! Hear!


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[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

I must have downloaded a different game than JimmyTheBestCop did, since my copies have shown dramatic improvement to non-engine things in 21, again in 22, then again in 23. Weird that they release different versions to different people.

If you think it's exploitative that you can claim a player off of Waivers then trade him back to the team though, couldn't you just...not do that? Same with Rule 5 abuse of either claiming players then trading them, or trading prospects on the date of the Rule 5 draft to be able to claim them back.

If the game has obvious gamebreaking flaws between AI-AI interaction that you have to police and continuously undo AI moves, that's a big problem. But if you're saying that the game is broken because there's a hole in the fence that lets the human take a shortcut in the race track but none of the AI use the hole...then if you dip through the hole each lap and complain the race is too easy, that seems like a you problem.

It goes so much beyond that. The AI is incapable of handling the simple financial model in the game and it causes problems everywhere.

Exploits have to be CLOSED! No other video game community I have ever been apart of tolerates exploits even in a single player game.But OOTP community doesnt care. They are just happy to play a baseball game. That is sad.

Go back and read everything in this thread. The GM side of the game is completely flawed. If you are just leaving your roster, simming and playing out the games in the 3d world you probably never notice the huge problems. But interact with the OOTP world as a "GM" should and the OOTP crumbles like a stale graham cracker.

If certain users of OOTP cant see that then I would wager OOTP is probably one of the only games they play or ever played.

Coming from a life long gamer who purchases 1-2 dozen new games a year then it is easy to see all the flaws, exploits, glitches, out dated gui, and systems that havent been updated in years.

And REPEAT I still think OOTP is worth the $40 cause I know I will get at least 40-60 hours out of it. And I still have fun and enjoy it. It is just a game I would only play when I am craving baseball.

If I am craving a sports game or a management game or tycoon game then OOTP would be the last game I grab. As there are dozen and dozen of titles every year that do a much better job then OOTP.

OOTP killer feature is its BASEBALL. And that is basically it. If you want baseball sim then its really the only game in town

[Pelican]

Originally Posted by Karl Pagel Blues

Not sure if the correct term to describe the overriding need to always get in the last word is 'narcissistic' or 'egomaniacal'.

Technically it would be “obsessive”, but you’re on the right track.

[Pelican]

[“Go back and read everything in this thread. The GM side of the game is completely flawed. If you are just leaving your roster, simming and playing out the games in the 3d world you probably never notice the huge problems. But interact with the OOTP world as a "GM" should and the OOTP crumbles like a stale graham cracker.”]

[“Coming from a life long gamer who purchases 1-2 dozen new games a year then it is easy to see all the flaws, exploits, glitches, out dated gui, and systems that havent been updated in years.”]

Far be it for me to challenge a “life long gamer” [life-long gamer], but the Metaphor Department points out that a “stale graham cracker” would in fact not crumble, since it would be soft and damp and gooey and gross.

Also, I did go back and read everything posted in the thread. It was tedious, but I did it. I would not report the consensus as being “the GM side of the game is seriously flawed”. It was the familiar mix of rants, histrionics, flattery, and questions. I did not see any coherent reports of “huge problems”. It’s a mixed bag, a classic YMMV.

There were thoughtful criticisms of aspects of the game, including your own. Many others, including those who obviously play a lot, and have played for awhile, did not seem to have encountered “flaws, exploits, glitches, out-dated GUI”, or “systems that haven’t been updated in years”.

Unless we are talking about surgery or space travel, it’s a mistake to “let the perfect be the enemy of the good”. I did not expect my $40 to purchase a flawless game, when i climbed on the bus three years ago. OOTP 21 was not flawless. But, as I think you acknowledge, the minor flaws did not prevent many happy hours playing in many different scenarios, and the more fundamental issues were subtle, more in the realm of very intense gamers, and debatable, though not by me (due to lack of technical expertise; not lack of inclination to argue).

Most important, the developers seem to have gone to great lengths to identify, recognize, and repair the bugs, flaws, glitches, and potential exploits that have been identified. Time after time. To me, that is a lot of support for a $40 ($80 to get both Mac and Windows for me) investment.