One way to take care of cheesing the “take” option (or putting on the steal sign too much)

[Syd Thrift]

…is that IRL, looking at the AL last year, if you start with an 0-1 count your OPS drops by about 100 points, fueled by a 30 point loss in BA and another 25 of Isolated Walks. A common reason why teams didn’t send Rickey on every single pitch was exactly that: if the batter takes on the first pitch, even if Henderson is now at second, you’ve turned a .280 hitter into a .250 one (plus of course he’s no longer being held at first, so that hole closes). Taking a pitch becomes a massive gamble in that regard. And if for some reason you take or run other strategies until a player gets to 2 strikes, it’s an even bigger deal.

If the game already does something like that this year, disregard, although it does seem like maybe guys who issue the green light on steals aren’t getting punished enough for doing so. IRL you’d also see managers adapt to that, although I understand that that would be very hard to do in a game like this.

[brotherblues]

As a guy who built a lot of teams based on stealing bases at abusive levels (every player, nearly every time that made any sense, resulting in every guy on the team stealing from 60 bags minimum, up to over 170)... I can confirm that this leads to too many wins and does not reflect what would happen if a team tried it irl.

[BBGiovanni]

Interesting post re OOTP, but I'm pretty sure Rickey was the one deciding when Rickey was going to run.

[Dave Stieb II]

Rickey believes Rickey would attest to that.

[PSUColonel]

I think it would be more realistic to give "green light" or "stop" signs when managing games, as opposed to having direct control over what players do in certain situations.

[Ktulu]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I think it would be more realistic to give "green light" or "stop" signs when managing games, as opposed to having direct control over what players do in certain situations.

Agree, at least for full at bat mode. "Steal" should be attempt to steal at some point during the at bat, not necessarily the first pitch. If people want to cheese pitch by pitch mode... whatever, it's your game play it your way.

Also prefer to let the AI coach manage baserunning decisions since that's far more realistic than manually deciding to send the runner as manager from the bench.

[MrDov]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I think it would be more realistic to give "green light" or "stop" signs when managing games, as opposed to having direct control over what players do in certain situations.

100% this. My save in OOTP23 I've been managing out every game and handing steals has been annoying. I’m very aware of the “take” issue and am actively avoiding taking advantage of that. Plus I don’t want to drag out ABs and make them take forever as I try to steal on multiple pitches.

It leads to me choosing “Run & Hit” on first pitches when I want to steal, and my success rate is much lower than I should be. I assume because I only attempt to steal in a specific in opportune time.

I really wish there was some sort of feature added where you check a “green light” box telling your runner to attempt a steal on any pitch if they feel comfortable doing so.

[Dave Stieb II]

Yes to the Colonel and yes to your comments about the run and hit.
I absolutely love the green light/red light idea.
As for run and hit....in prior versions - and even OOTP23 - I leaned on it heavily when the count got to 2-1, with the right players of course. I seldomly called for a steal as I found the results sub-par and counter productive (Standard Games) when calling for straight steals.
The fact that stealing is, apparently, now so easy is not going to change my approach.
I am starting a new save with the Guardians and it is a speed and contact oriented team. We'll be aggressive - might even call for a steal occasionally (once) and we'll run and hit quite a bit because my experience so far in OOTP23 doesn't indicate that is broken.
But I'm sure not going to game myself out of a realistic experience, if you know what I mean.

[PSUColonel]

I would also submit managers' don't really deal with telling batters when to "take pitch" or telling pitchers exactly when to throw over to first. These sort of things seem to me to be more player oriented, and not something the manager would get involved with. I think the red/green light could be handled similarly to the new way hold runner is done. Either it's on or off, and if it's on, the runner can try to find a good count and/or get a good jump if he can. Stealing ability should obviously come into play here. Once the player goes, then it would be speed, but stealing ability is part of the equation in that the runner found a favorable count and got a good jump.

[StratMan]

Stealing is my biggest frustration with this game as it is a HUGE exploit that honestly ruins playing out games. And there is no easy way to "fix" it with house rules, as you can always use the system below in "critical" situations instead of all the time. It really needs to be overhauled. Even StratOMatic in an 80s tabletop game did it better.

I play out out all of my games (game by game) in both majors and minors on a OOTP 19 sim (so I've seen thousands of games). I have OOTP 22 and no differences are apparent, but if so please correct my observations below.

* Many of my teams steal 600+ bases a year at 80+% success rate. I run & hit on all non pitchout counts with everyone 65 steal rate or better, trailing runners on double steals can have 55 or 60. I will occasionally steal with 75 or 80s on first pitch. 65s don't always run & hit depending on catcher / situation.
* Run & Hit vs Steal sign have no difference in steal success outside of pitch outs.
* Pitch outs only occur on counts 0-0, 0-1, 0-2, 1-2. On any other count, you can steal with maximum success rate with run & hit.
* With slow runners (30 with 65 steal ability), you can mostly ignore pitch outs and steal on every count.
* Can't steal on 2 strike pitch because the batter will take all pitches

I think this is what we need for stealing
* Green Light (base runner may attempt steal and batter may swing (default). Maximum success rate
* Red Light (base runner may not attempt steal)
* Run & Hit (batter goes on next pitch, batter may swing) lower success rate, penalty based on speed rating.
* Steal (batters must steal on next pitch, runner takes) lower success rate, penalty based on speed
* Double steals could be either variety, but trailing runner may not always advance on "green light"

[Deft]

I can attest that taking one or even two strikes in OOTP works and wearing out opposing aces early, and increase walks across the board with minimal BA impact. When I do this the opposing pitchers rarely throw less than 20 pitches/inning and are gone by the 6th for sure.

Building a team of fast, low BB and SO hitters with an in-game strategy of taking until your first strike or even your second strike is very effective.

[Syd Thrift]

I know people will hate this but as a workaround I recommend farming baserunning out to your bench coach until the devs figure out how to resolve this. If you want to steal more, hire a bench coach who wants to run more. This also isn’t completely ahistorical, although I get that some people looooove to micro in this game (and I mean, I am a person who plays out and controls every single game by every major league team in my save so I am not casting aspersions with this).

[Pelican]

Two things.

First, my practice has been to sometimes take the first pitch when the pitcher has a lousy control rating (likely to throw ball one), and the batter has a lousy eye (likely to swing at ball one). That can and should frequently result in ball one. Then, in one-pitch mode, I would allow the batter to swing, figuring that his prospects of getting on base with a 1-0 count had improved. And yes, I also figured this would make the opposing starter throw more pitches and get tired out sooner. I wouldn’t put on the take sign with my best hitters, or with pitchers having better than average control. I sometimes would use it right after a four-pitch walk (which I interpret as the AI suggesting the pitcher is wild and has lost the plate).

Second, on stealing, does anyone else encounter runners (good base stealers) stopping halfway instead of stealing (or attempting)? I have had this happen repeatedly. I don’t steal that much; but I would like the guy to go for it when I give the sign. I can understand not getting a good jump or slipping; but I have had the “halfway” result three or four times in a row. That would put a lid on excessive stealing; but it interferes with managing. Note that this does not happen with hit and run or run and hit plays. There, the runner always breaks for second. So sometimes I use run and hit in order to maybe get a steal (or a line drive double play!!).

[PSUColonel]

Yep…for some of these strategy options I’m all for red and green lights. Giving a green light doesn’t mean it’s going to happen, but it means your pitcher can throw over to first during the at bat or your base runner can steal if he can find a good opportunity…or you are instructing your hitter to try to take more pitches during an at bat if they are close.. To me this should help to stop cheesing the system, and it’s also much more realistic in terms of how things are actually done.

[PSUColonel]

In fact, I’d suggest three lights…red, yellow and green.

Green obviously means a player has the managers full blessing to try something, and will obviously do so with more frequency. Yellow is a normal state where the manager has no real opinion, and the actions taken are determined by the player ratings/skills and different team or individual player strategy settings.

Red obviously means don’t do it no matter what.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by Pelican

Two things.

First, my practice has been to sometimes take the first pitch when the pitcher has a lousy control rating (likely to throw ball one), and the batter has a lousy eye (likely to swing at ball one). That can and should frequently result in ball one. Then, in one-pitch mode, I would allow the batter to swing, figuring that his prospects of getting on base with a 1-0 count had improved. And yes, I also figured this would make the opposing starter throw more pitches and get tired out sooner..

FWIW, as far as I know, the game doesn't actually know if it's a 1-0, 0-1, 2-1, or 3-0 count. If you have Joe Smith come up against Dan James and hit Take Pitch twice and end up 2-0 then hit Swing Away, you'll get the exact same results as if you hit Take Pitch twice and end up 0-2 then hit Swing Away.

[StratMan]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

FWIW, as far as I know, the game doesn't actually know if it's a 1-0, 0-1, 2-1, or 3-0 count. If you have Joe Smith come up against Dan James and hit Take Pitch twice and end up 2-0 then hit Swing Away, you'll get the exact same results as if you hit Take Pitch twice and end up 0-2 then hit Swing Away.

I believe you are correct on this which is why I don't bother with taking pitches at all. There is no real life strategy at play that the game reflects (same chance to SO or BB). But SB is different and the exploit hole is so huge.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

FWIW, as far as I know, the game doesn't actually know if it's a 1-0, 0-1, 2-1, or 3-0 count. If you have Joe Smith come up against Dan James and hit Take Pitch twice and end up 2-0 then hit Swing Away, you'll get the exact same results as if you hit Take Pitch twice and end up 0-2 then hit Swing Away.

Which is why I’ve always thought of OOTP as more of a GM simulator, and have always felt most of the time, money and resources OOTD has should go into that aspect of the game.

[Hoiles]

I only play one pitch, but to reduce cheesing the stealing system, if the guy doesn’t run on the 0-0 count I just swing away, which I know is completely unrealistic but needed to somewhat keep the steal totals in check. Regardless, with some of those deadball leaguers with high SB/low CS totals you get some Rickey Henderson/Usain Bolt totals from time to time unless you reign in yourself.

Delegating it to the bench coach sounds like the best approach right now.

[Pelican]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

FWIW, as far as I know, the game doesn't actually know if it's a 1-0, 0-1, 2-1, or 3-0 count. If you have Joe Smith come up against Dan James and hit Take Pitch twice and end up 2-0 then hit Swing Away, you'll get the exact same results as if you hit Take Pitch twice and end up 0-2 then hit Swing Away.

Disappointing. No more taking for me, then.