Does DH'ing help with fatigue/injuries?

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

Is it expected behaviour that in OOTP it seems not at all possible to have someone split time between Catching/DHing (like say Sal Perez did last year) because of the way fatigue seems to work?

I think that would depend on how the days off in the schedule fell. I see IRL he started 120 games at C. Not sure how\if one could work around one of those 20 days in a row parts of the schedule in OOTP? I haven't looked closely or given it much thought. But you might be able to "milk" your way to getting there if you tolerated him playing with a little more fatigue than you normally would?

In any case, and it's just my opinion, I think OOTP gets this right. The idea playing at DH equals a day off doesn't seem quite right to me. If it takes a bit of stamina for the every day DH to play (and I think it should) then I'm not seeing why a C would get either a "stay" on their stamina let alone get some back.

Yes, Perez may have done this last year but who's to say how that may have affected his output? Maybe with an actual day off here and there he performs slightly better? Maybe he's a guy that has a natural physical ability to hold up on that schedule where average Joe doesn't?

Just some off the cuff thoughts.

[Rain King]

He started 120 games at C and 40 games at DH. So, only 2 games not in the starting lineup. He pinch hit in 1 of those 2 games.

[Rain King]

Teams pretty regularly use the DH as a semi-rest day for players. I definitely think OOTP needs some adjusting to model that.

Think about it this way. If you run a marathon on Day 1 and then DH on Day 2, you are absolutely more rested on Day 3 than on Day 2.

So, I think there needs to be a threshold where DHing should improve rest percentage. Perez is probably a good model to look at as far as how that would be best implemented (similar to how Ohtani is a good model to understand Pitcher fatigue vs. Batter fatigue).

[MathBandit]

For another example, Springer this year IRL has played in all but one of the Jays games, who have only had a single off-day so far (Apr 18th), and the game he missed was due to having been HBP the night before - he's been rotating through the DH and RF though, which irl means less wear and tear than playing CF everyday. Bichette has started all 24 Jays games in 25 days at SS, including an active streak of 14 straight days.

Based on past experience (though I haven't tested it in OOTP23), my guess is if I tried to do either of those things both of them would be pretty gassed.

[md40022]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

For another example, Springer this year IRL has played in all but one of the Jays games, who have only had a single off-day so far (Apr 18th), and the game he missed was due to having been HBP the night before - he's been rotating through the DH and RF though, which irl means less wear and tear than playing CF everyday. Bichette has started all 24 Jays games in 25 days at SS, including an active streak of 14 straight days.

Based on past experience (though I haven't tested it in OOTP23), my guess is if I tried to do either of those things both of them would be pretty gassed.

I think a lot of this depends on how much player's attributes are affected as they fatigue.



Earlier in this thread you and I both said we normally give days off as soon as a player's fatigue goes "yellow."



Maybe we are being too generous with what we're doing. Maybe guys still perform at 99% of their skill level when they are just hitting yellow fatigue. Maybe the others on this same thread that said they have their guys dip into 40% before giving an off day are doing this the right way. Maybe player performance doesn't really start to decline from fatigue until players are wayyyyyy more fatigued than what you or I ever allow them to be.



Personally, I'm too lazy to do any real research on this and I don't expect the developers to give away any secrets on this. But the one thing I'd say is maybe test out letting your guys fatigue dip lower than you have in the past and see how their performance is or isn't affected. Maybe you (and I) have been too quick to give off days. Maybe those IRL examples you gave would play out similarly with OOTP if we weren't too generous with off days.

[md40022]

I don't know how similar the fatigue meters are for SP and position players, but normally we aren't even considering yanking the SP when he first hits yellow. Yet I go into panic mode and arrange for an off-day ASAP when a position player first hits yellow haha.

So maybe you and I have been mismanaging. Maybe try letting the position players keep going. Eventually you'll hit an off day in the schedule and they'll recoup a good amount and maybe things will play out closer to IRL for you that way...... I suppose it's worth testing out at least.

[Rain King]

I guess someone could do an as-played 2021 replay and monitor Salvy?

I'll see how much free time I can muster up in the next few days.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by md40022

I don't know how similar the fatigue meters are for SP and position players, but normally we aren't even considering yanking the SP when he first hits yellow. Yet I go into panic mode and arrange for an off-day ASAP when a position player first hits yellow haha.

So maybe you and I have been mismanaging. Maybe try letting the position players keep going. Eventually you'll hit an off day in the schedule and they'll recoup a good amount and maybe things will play out closer to IRL for you that way...... I suppose it's worth testing out at least.

At the same time, I also don't start an SP who is Yellow, either.

And this isn't just "Slightly Yellow", at least for Catchers who can hit/DH. The example I posted that spurred this from last year was Moreno fully resting on an off-day, then playing C/C/DH/DH/DH and being down to 41%.

[md40022]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

At the same time, I also don't start an SP who is Yellow, either.

And this isn't just "Slightly Yellow", at least for Catchers who can hit/DH. The example I posted that spurred this from last year was Moreno fully resting on an off-day, then playing C/C/DH/DH/DH and being down to 41%.

What I meant is you don't pull your starting pitcher 2 innings into the game when he first hits yellow, because you know he still should be performing at close to full strength.



Something seems drastically off with the Moreno example. Going from 100% to 41% in the matter of 5 games seems, regardless of what position he's playing, seems almost glitched. Was this late in the given season and was he playing every single day for a while prior to that off-day? Because that really seems off. I'm kind of wondering if there was some cumulative fatigue or something from being 90% of the way through the season and having a heavy previous workload or something??? Because something seems off there.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by md40022

What I meant is you don't pull your starting pitcher 2 innings into the game when he first hits yellow, because you know he still should be performing at close to full strength.



Something seems drastically off with the Moreno example. Going from 100% to 41% in the matter of 5 games seems, regardless of what position he's playing, seems almost glitched. Was this late in the given season and was he playing every single day for a while prior to that off-day? Because that really seems off. I'm kind of wondering if there was some cumulative fatigue or something from being 90% of the way through the season and having a heavy previous workload or something??? Because something seems off there.

Yellow pitching meter in-game doesn't have any correlation to yellow (fatigue) out of game. If you put in a fatigued pitcher to pitch, he still starts out in the green.

As for Moreno, no. I never start any Catcher once they are fatigued at all (yellow), and prior to that attempt I wasn't DHing him in the yellow either. I was just trying to find a way to keep his bat in the lineup the way teams do irl.

[jdw31158]

In my Cubs save, Contreras was in the yellow but I wanted to keep his bat in the lineup, so I started him in left. The next day he was fully rested. I imagine it has a lot to do with durability as far as how and how long it takes to get rested.

[MathBandit]

So DH causes extra fatigue but LF heals fatigue?

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by Rain King

I guess someone could do an as-played 2021 replay and monitor Salvy?

I'll see how much free time I can muster up in the next few days.

FYI, this does not go well. Perez spends a LOT of time at 0% Rest Status.

[Matt Arnold]

It's certainly always something we keep an eye on. It's always so hard to balance - some years guys play virtually every day DH and regular. Other years even full-time DH seem to need some time off to rest aches and pains.

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

It's certainly always something we keep an eye on. It's always so hard to balance - some years guys play virtually every day DH and regular. Other years even full-time DH seem to need some time off to rest aches and pains.

I'm sure that getting the right balance is easier said than done, Matt, and you are correct, it seems to change somewhat year to year. There is also a mental element to fatigue that doesn't really get rest if a player DH's.
Having said that......

Ultimately, IRL, teams use regulars as the DH to 'give them a breather' in order to keep their bat in the line up. It is generally considered the next best thing to giving the player an actual day off.

IMHO, OOTP should reflect that. Perhaps the day as a DH shouldn't fully restore the player's energy to the same extent as a full day off, but it should restore some of it and the player should not see his fatigue level fall further.

Keep in mind, teams can only use one player as the DH in this way on any given day. So when you are in the middle of one of those long stretches without a day off, and/or with a double header mixed in, teams still won't be able to restore everyone. Some players will still need a rest.

[jeffw3000]

Originally Posted by Rain King

He started 120 games at C and 40 games at DH. So, only 2 games not in the starting lineup. He pinch hit in 1 of those 2 games.

He is doing the same thing this year. In 21 games, he as DH'd 6 and caught 15. When you lead the league in HRs, they will find a way to keep your bat in the lineup. Especially when you are the Kansas City Royals.

With the NL adopting the DH, I think you will begin to see this more to keep the best bats in the lineup. Not just with catchers, but with the best hitters on teams. I hate the DH, but as a Pirate fan, if I have to live with it. I am looking forward to the day Henry Davis comes up, and we can DH him on his days off to keep him in the lineup every night.

[MathBandit]

Especially with all the improvements to Custom Lineups, it seems like everything is in place to really allow the user to build a plan to manage fatigue via DH, other than the game not cooperating lol

[jeffw3000]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

I'm sure that getting the right balance is easier said than done, Matt, and you are correct, it seems to change somewhat year to year. There is also a mental element to fatigue that doesn't really get rest if a player DH's.
Having said that......

Ultimately, IRL, teams use regulars as the DH to 'give them a breather' in order to keep their bat in the line up. It is generally considered the next best thing to giving the player an actual day off.

IMHO, OOTP should reflect that. Perhaps the day as a DH shouldn't fully restore the player's energy to the same extent as a full day off, but it should restore some of it and the player should not see his fatigue level fall further.

Keep in mind, teams can only use one player as the DH in this way on any given day. So when you are in the middle of one of those long stretches without a day off, and/or with a double header mixed in, teams still won't be able to restore everyone. Some players will still need a rest.

Catching especially, almost needs to be treated differently. It has always been considered, so tough to play, and a brutal position on the body and mind as well.

If you had a good hitting catcher you would always find ways to get them in the lineup. Buster Posey often played 1B, or DH in interleague games. He would play 150 games a year. Johnny Bench started his career catching 150 games a year. He quickly found out that would not work, and started playing other positions on days off. He played over 100 games at both 1B and 3B, and over 100 in the OF, and he still had knee problems. Imagine if he could have DHed on his days off. I could see this becoming more the case with good hitting catchers in the future. To not give them a true day off, but use them as a DH.

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by jeffw3000

Catching especially, almost needs to be treated differently. It has always been considered, so tough to play, and a brutal position on the body and mind as well.

If you had a good hitting catcher you would always find ways to get them in the lineup. Buster Posey often played 1B, or DH in interleague games. He would play 150 games a year. Johnny Bench started his career catching 150 games a year. He quickly found out that would not work, and started playing other positions on days off. He played over 100 games at both 1B and 3B, and over 100 in the OF, and he still had knee problems. Imagine if he could have DHed on his days off. I could see this becoming more the case with good hitting catchers in the future. To not give them a true day off, but use them as a DH.

Buster Posey also retired at age 34, Bench at 35 and never hit 140+ games after he was 30.

It's always the flaw with catchers - you really want them in the lineup and playing, but catching is such a toll. That (plus some fantasy leagues) are why I have a soft spot for a guy like Yadier Molina. He was still in the 130-140+ games even as a 34 year old, and still has kept going as a workhorse beyond that. A lot of positions I don't really feel that just playing a long time really makes you HOF-worthy, but there's definitely something special about catchers that you gotta start wondering if guys like Boone or Kendall deserve deeper looks, and what Yadi will get when he's due up.

[MrDov]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

It's certainly always something we keep an eye on. It's always so hard to balance - some years guys play virtually every day DH and regular. Other years even full-time DH seem to need some time off to rest aches and pains.

This is a good point, I’m sure in real life every player responds to DH days differently. Almost feels like OOTP should add a new value related to how much fatigue a player does or doesn’t recover when they DH. Though I’m not sure if that added complexity is worth adding for a problem that’s relatively small.

As an aside, how does the game handle fatigue recovery for a guy who has a single pinch hit plate appearance? Or a guy who comes in as a defensive sub for the last inning or two?