When we weren't looking ...

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

The K rate has been increasing constantly for 50 years, weird that the MLB is suddenly doing something about it but I guess that's how they run things (see: 40 years of steroids before Congress held hearings and baseball had to start giving a crap). Can't wait until someone hits 80 homeruns in 5-10 years and they notice that the homerun rate has been higher for the past 5 years than at any point in baseball history and overreact to that.

They did dejuice the balls prior to the season so now HR rates are merely at the rate they were in the early 2000s.

[Syd Thrift]

trola,

Regarding the “ everyone is doing it” excuse, that’s kind of the issue. Back in the old days you just had a few over the hill guys use the spitter. It took a little bit of craft to figure out how to do and frankly beyond those players it was simply a huge embarrassment to get caught. Part and parcel to that, things hadn’t been studied terribly well and doctoring baseballs was done to make them more slippery off the hand and more volatile, whereas nowadays it’s basically the opposite: players use “sticky stuff” or whatever to get a better grip on the ball so that they can impart more spin and throw the ball faster with control.

The other thing I find interesting is that we’ve been hit by several scandals over the past couple decades that were mostly an outgrowth of players doing things they’d basically always done, only now it’s scientific and systematic and kind of ruining the game. First there were steroids… players might not have literally been injecting steroids since the dawn of time but various performance enhancing drugs, particularly speed, had been widely used going back to at least the 60s and probably much further. Then there were the Astros and sign stealing, which again has been done since baseball had signs - the Shot Heard Round the World was off of a stolen sign - but never to the systematic and technology aided degree the Astros engaged in. And finally we have doctoring the baseballs.

Baseball is slow to change but it does enact change when it needs to. One can hope that this will drop K rates down to somewhere below 9 K/9, although I’m slightly pessimistic - I think pitcher usage patterns are more the culprit and I don’t think you’re going to see guys not throw 100 for an inning at a time until they can’t do so with control anymore (which, to that end, and given the fact that you can create something with decent tack by mixing sunscreen with rosin, maybe it’s time to get rid of the latter). But perhaps this will arrest it a little, enough to remind the powers that be that the game can be fun to watch when it’s not all three true outcomes?

[pgjocki]

The three outcomes in my opinion is the number one killer of baseball. The game is just boring and as a dad with young kids and limited time I want to see action, baserunning, strategy and not just endless strikeouts with a homerun every now and then.

Sure that earns me a "get off my lawn" but it's how I feel.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[dkgo]

I understand why pitchers aren't happy and changing rules/enforcement midseason is usually a bad way to do business, but their complaints basically break down to "I had to grip the ball differently and couldn't throw certain pitches like I used to."

That's kinda the whole point guys. If you aren't able to throw a fastball at a certain speed/spin without illegal substances then you should never have been throwing that pitch in the first place!

[ezpkns34]

Originally Posted by dkgo

I understand why pitchers aren't happy and changing rules/enforcement midseason is usually a bad way to do business, but their complaints basically break down to "I had to grip the ball differently and couldn't throw certain pitches like I used to."

That's kinda the whole point guys. If you aren't able to throw a fastball at a certain speed/spin without illegal substances then you should never have been throwing that pitch in the first place!

It's simply example #39583595736 of how people can convince themselves of whatever they want to be true

Self-delusion is tough to overcome

[ezpkns34]

Also, some sports scientists think the (again) changed ball is more of a culprit than sticky stuffs

https://sports.yahoo.com/mlb-sticky-...130032462.html

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

trola,

Regarding the “ everyone is doing it” excuse, that’s kind of the issue. Back in the old days you just had a few over the hill guys use the spitter. It took a little bit of craft to figure out how to do and frankly beyond those players it was simply a huge embarrassment to get caught. Part and parcel to that, things hadn’t been studied terribly well and doctoring baseballs was done to make them more slippery off the hand and more volatile, whereas nowadays it’s basically the opposite: players use “sticky stuff” or whatever to get a better grip on the ball so that they can impart more spin and throw the ball faster with control.

The other thing I find interesting is that we’ve been hit by several scandals over the past couple decades that were mostly an outgrowth of players doing things they’d basically always done, only now it’s scientific and systematic and kind of ruining the game. First there were steroids… players might not have literally been injecting steroids since the dawn of time but various performance enhancing drugs, particularly speed, had been widely used going back to at least the 60s and probably much further. Then there were the Astros and sign stealing, which again has been done since baseball had signs - the Shot Heard Round the World was off of a stolen sign - but never to the systematic and technology aided degree the Astros engaged in. And finally we have doctoring the baseballs.

Baseball is slow to change but it does enact change when it needs to. One can hope that this will drop K rates down to somewhere below 9 K/9, although I’m slightly pessimistic - I think pitcher usage patterns are more the culprit and I don’t think you’re going to see guys not throw 100 for an inning at a time until they can’t do so with control anymore (which, to that end, and given the fact that you can create something with decent tack by mixing sunscreen with rosin, maybe it’s time to get rid of the latter). But perhaps this will arrest it a little, enough to remind the powers that be that the game can be fun to watch when it’s not all three true outcomes?

The spitter was outlawed primarily due to the number of batters getting hurt. Look at the number of injuries in the last year or two, and the number of hit batsmen.

Cards got hit twice last night, from whiffle balls from Charlie effing Morton, who took a no-hitter into the seventh inning.

Charlie Morton had .398 winning percentage for the Pirates, with a WHIP of 1.427, all the way to age 31.

At that point, he must have discovered Spider Tack, or Gorilla Glue, or SOMETHING. His ERA+ was 86, up until age 31.

His BEST SO9 was 7.2, with an average of 6.3.

Since then? He's gone 57-30, and his WORST SO9 is 9.9.

You all tell ME how a pitcher, just turned 32, can increase his strikeout rate by MORE than 50%. Hint...it isn't the batters.

[Jason Moyer]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

They did dejuice the balls prior to the season so now HR rates are merely at the rate they were in the early 2000s.

Yes and no. HR per 9 innings are the same as they were in 99 and 00, but back then the ratios were 1.2 HR vs 9.4 Hits and now it's 1.2 HR vs 8.1 Hits. If strikeouts start going down I wouldn't be surprised if new HR records were set every year. Maybe not individual ones since we haven't had an expansion since 98, but league wide there are going to be a ton. Or not, I don't really expect MLB's changes to do much. Supposedly the focus on spinrate and using grip to enhance that only started about 5 years ago, and the K/9 rate was already over 8 at that point.

[Jason Moyer]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Charlie Morton had .398 winning percentage for the Pirates, with a WHIP of 1.427, all the way to age 31.

At that point, he must have discovered Spider Tack, or Gorilla Glue, or SOMETHING. His ERA+ was 86, up until age 31.

His BEST SO9 was 7.2, with an average of 6.3.

Since then? He's gone 57-30, and his WORST SO9 is 9.9.

You all tell ME how a pitcher, just turned 32, can increase his strikeout rate by MORE than 50%. Hint...it isn't the batters.

If you look at the pitchfx data (sorry I forget which site has it) the biggest difference between Morton/Cole/Glanow with the Pirates and after they left is pitch selection and location. The Pirates had those guys throwing tons of sinkers and 2-seam fastballs and pitching to contact, immediately after leaving all of them started using more aggressive pitch selection. While the 'throw sinkers and get contact' thing worked in 2013 when they had a good defense and a bunch of old guys who couldn't stay healthy, it was insanely stupid to have guys in their 20's who could strike people out doing that.

[dkgo]

"Pitch to contact" is the strategy of a team winning by 10 runs and a team like the pirates with 20 losing seasons in a row

[Jason Moyer]

I just checked the data for Morton. With the Pirates he was throwing his sinker 60-70% of the time and the year he left he started throwing a cutter and his sinker usage dropped below 20% at times. He's also been throwing his 4-seamer a ton the last few years after barely using it with the Buccos.

https://www.brooksbaseball.net/outco.../2021&s_type=2

[zappa1]

So when do they randomly start checking bats, Mr. Judge?

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by zappa1

So when do they randomly start checking bats, Mr. Judge?

They should be randomly checking EVERY g-d'ed thing! They used to, or my memory is faulty.

I remember umpires coming out to the mound, looking for nail files. I remember pine tar could not extend too far up the bat handle. I remember players being told to tuck their bling inside their jerseys or take it off altogether. And for gosh sakes, you are a first or third-base umpire (the one closest to the guilty dugout), and you don't notice the sound of somebody banging on a trash can?

Old fud dashers seize upon such reminiscing as evidence of irrelevance to current times. Often those people are right.

Yet, how satisfied are you with the way baseball is being played today? Do you like the dramatic swing of home runs and run production to the death valley of batting averages in just a few years?

Do you like seeing Sammy Sosa, he of steroids and corked bat fame, still listed as number 9 for career home runs? Do you like seeing the Houston Astros forever listed as the World Series champions of 2017?

Cheaters will cheat as long as they think they can get away with it, and they do when officials choose to look the other way out of greed or are too lazy and incompetent to do their jobs.

[cephasjames]

First off, both of the below questions are totally loaded because of your use of "like." People don't have to like either of these situations in order to be 100% okay with them.

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Do you like seeing Sammy Sosa, he of steroids and corked bat fame, still listed as number 9 for career home runs?

I'm 100% okay with this because no one, and by no one, I mean no one, can say how many home runs he added because of his cheating. Until someone, anyone, can definitively say how many home runs he added through cheating, and thus how many to take off of his totals, his numbers stand.

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Do you like seeing the Houston Astros forever listed as the World Series champions of 2017?

I'm 100% okay with this because no one, and by no one, I mean no one, can say how many wins they got because of their cheating. Including within the play-offs. Until someone, anyone, can definitively say how many wins they got because of their cheating, and thus how many to take off of their totals, their wins stand.

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Cheaters will cheat as long as they think they can get away with it, and they do when officials choose to look the other way out of greed or are too lazy and incompetent to do their jobs.

These are questions because of the bold, not a challenge to the bold: Is a rule even a rule if it's not enforced? If a rule is not enforced then doesn't the non-enforcement then become "the rule"?

[dkgo]

That view doesnt make a ton of sense to me. You dont get a free pass for cheating just because no one can prove exactly what you gained from it. Everything you did while cheating should be invalidated. If a player commits a holding penalty the refs dont discuss how many yards it resulted in, they call the penalty and everything else is irrelevant.

[Jason Moyer]

Were you ok with Hank Aaron being #1 in career HR even though the Braves had tons of players using steroids? I'm not implying that he was among them, but I honestly don't know.

[dkgo]

Since steroids werent banned until the 90s Im not sure how it is relevant

I think everyone knows players took all kinds of stuff way back then

[Jason Moyer]

Steroids weren't banned until 2005. I know everyone likes to say Fay Vincent banned them in 1991, but it doesn't mean anything if it wasn't collectively bargained.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by dkgo

You dont get a free pass for cheating just because no one can prove exactly what you gained from it.

I never said anyone should get a free pass for cheating. I said I'm okay with Sosa's numbers because there is literally no way to prove what his numbers would be with or without cheating. As I said, being okay with it doesn't mean I like it.

Originally Posted by dkgo

Everything you did while cheating should be invalidated.

What number of home runs should be taken away from Sosa? What consists of "everything" for him? How many of his home runs were legitimate? How many did he ht while cheating?

[Déjà Bru]

Better late than never, I suppose:

As pitchers decry MLB's foreign-substance crackdown, unfazed commissioner Rob Manfred says changes 'have gone very well'

"Pitchers decry" means their B.S. of using super glue to artificially improve their grip has been revealed and reversed. Now they are on their own, without crutches, and we will see who actually is a good pitcher and who is not. I wonder if there will be another no-hitter this season or will there be a suspiciously sudden drop-off?

Poor Max Scherzer. His routine is all out of kilter now because, hey, maybe it's not alright to be putting your fingers in your hair so often.