La Russa creates, then downplays, clubhouse rift

[thehef]

Seems like several knuckleheads behaving like knuckleheads, if you ask me. I totally get that a manager would give a take sign in that situation (there IS room for gentlemanly behavior in sports, and we do see it from time to time), and the player should respect that, and obey the sign. I mean, I think it's worse in this scenario to disregard the sign because the player was doing it for (apparently) selfish, non-competitive reasons, whereas in a competitive situation a player might disregard a sign because - just as an example - "I ignored the bunt sign because I just knew that outside-corner fastball was coming and that I could take it the other way and get that run home..." Not that the situation makes ignoring a sign right, but hey, at least it's a competitive situation and a player trying to win a game, rather than just draw attention to himself.

And so I get why a manager would be pissed *if* the player actually ignored the sign (rather than wasn't aware of the sign). But LaRussa should've kept it internally, both in his message to the player and in his message to the Twins. And then Twins end up looking very petty by throwing at the guy the next game. By doing so they clearly disrespected LaRussa's clear (if clumsy) efforts to mitigate the situation.

So, IMO, there are few contenders here for "biggest dumbazz"...

[Boomcoach]

Twins up the ante on stupidity about "unwritten rules".

Manager getting tossed for arguing about the pitcher's ejection just added to the farce.

[cephasjames]

Meh. I think that two things can be true at the same time. Mercedes handled the situation incorrectly and La Russa handled the situation incorrectly.

Not all unwritten rules are bad because they are unwritten rules (saying unwritten rules are bad seems to be trending these days). Players have never enjoyed being called out publically, but today's players respond to it vastly differently than in years past.

[Boomcoach]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Not all unwritten rules are bad because they are unwritten rules (saying unwritten rules are bad seems to be trending these days). Players have never enjoyed being called out publically, but today's players respond to it vastly differently than in years past.

I have no issue with unwritten rules, per se, especially when they pertain to safety, but deciding to potentially injure a player because he hurt your itty-bitty feelings by trying too hard is, and always has been, childish.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by Boomcoach

I have no issue with unwritten rules, per se, especially when they pertain to safety, but deciding to potentially injure a player because he hurt your itty-bitty feelings by trying too hard is, and always has been, childish.

Despite my post appearing after yours, it is not in response to your post, but the thread topic. My post wasn't a comment on retaliatory pitches.

EDIT: That being said, I think a post describing something as childish that uses the phrase "itty-bitty" is a bit ironic.

[Boomcoach]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Despite my post appearing after yours, it is not in response to your post, but the thread topic. My post wasn't a comment on retaliatory pitches.

I know. Sorry for making it seem so. My quoting your post to make it seem sequential was not a good move on my part.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by Boomcoach

I know. Sorry for making it seem so. My quoting your post to make it seem sequential was not a good move on my part.

Thanks! We're good.

[Déjà Bru]

Jeez, this just keeps getting worse! (Not you and Boomcoach but La Russa, about whom, I should add, I had nothing but vague thoughts about until this incident.)

A case could be made that La Russa invited retaliation against his own player with his comments. That's bad enough, but it was a done deal once he had ill-advisedly said what he said after that game.

But now there is this:

After the [next] game, La Russa said of the attempt to kneecap Mercedes: "I don't have a problem with how the Twins handled it."

He's actually endorsing the other team throwing at his player. What planet is this guy from?

Now, how much do you think this kid is going to listen to this windbag in the future? And to the extent that his teammates are in sympathy with Mercedes — wouldn't you be, if you were 26 and witness the pompous ass 50 years older than you harassing your buddy? — what do you think the atmosphere in that clubhouse is going to be like?

A Hall of Fame manager who can't even find wisdom in quietly advising the player that his behavior, including missing a sign (which I don't dispute La Russa's right to issue), was wrong and will not be tolerated.

This reminds me of a former boss of mine who did not like to confront people. Instead, when he was unhappy with someone, he would make comments behind their back, hoping that it would get relayed to them and correct their behavior. Needless to say, it never worked because either the message would not be transmitted or it would be embellished and distorted by the time it got there.

What a doofus this guy La Russa is. He may have been a great manager in the past but he must be changing as he gets older. Seriously, I cannot see him as a manager at all if this incident is typical of his style these days. If I were his superior, I would be having a quiet chat with him.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

He's actually endorsing the other team throwing at his player.

He endorsed a message being sent, yes, because, in his view, that is a way to send a message. And has been for years upon years. It's a tactic that managers and players haven't (or have very rarely) complained about because it's an understood part of the game.**

I would actually argue that La Russa's praise of the Twins has more to do with them deciding to send a message by throwing behind Mercedes ("attempt to kneecap," really? Total hyperbole) rather than headhunting him or something like that. Duffey's throw, as throws go, was pretty calculated and harmless, imo, since it didn't even hit Mercedes.


__________

** By "complained about" I don't mean "get angry at the time." Players and managers get angry when it happens and then choose to either move on or hold a grudge or whatever. But they very rarely complain about "the system" in place.

[thehef]

Given a) the likely dissatisfaction among the younger players with the old man regarding this incident, and b) the fact that the White Sox are a legit contender, seems to me it might be a good time for the vets - Abreau, Grandal, Eaton, Lynn, Keuchel - to be doing some counseling of the younger players (and some go-betweening with them & old guy) to make sure that while the younger guys' perspectives aren't to be dismissed, the goal is to stay together, look beyond this incident, generally respect the manager's experience & authority (and LaRussa to understand that the younger guys on his team are not the same as the younger guys of his heyday), and focus on the real goal.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Jeez, this just keeps getting worse! (Not you and Boomcoach but La Russa, about whom, I should add, I had nothing but vague thoughts about until this incident.)

I rearranged this sentence — the latter part of it — in case you guys read the previous version and did this:

What I meant was, I gave La Russa nary a thought until now. And I accepted his managerial greatness prima facie. Not any more; not by a long shot.

Regarding this:

Originally Posted by thehef

Given a) the likely dissatisfaction among the younger players with the old man regarding this incident, and b) the fact that the White Sox are a legit contender, seems to me it might be a good time for the vets - Abreau, Grandal, Eaton, Lynn, Keuchel - to be doing some counseling of the younger players (and some go-betweening with them & old guy) to make sure that while the younger guys' perspectives aren't to be dismissed, the goal is to stay together, look beyond this incident, generally respect the manager's experience & authority (and LaRussa to understand that the younger guys on his team are not the same as the younger guys of his heyday), and focus on the real goal.

Nice. Sometimes the real leaders of a team are guys like these, not necessarily an old guy who may be coasting along and trading in on past glories and a HOF membership.

As I said earlier, some people change as they get older in terms of attitudes and abilities. He holds four Manager of the Year Awards. Without descending to questioning whether his players and general managers got him those awards, I will merely point out that the newest of those awards was bestowed nearly 20 years ago.

I must tread lightly here because ageism is ugly. No one should assume that someone who is 76 necessarily cannot hack it anymore. I know how that feels on the receiving end. It's just that I don't see how anybody who has bungled a situation like La Russa has done here would ever deserve to be Manager of the Year. So if he did deserve those awards, then to me he seems to be a different man today if this story is any indication.

Because a good manager, let alone a great one, does not create a controversy like this merely by openly speaking his mind to the media. Far from it. No matter what the provocation or violation that caused it. The media is NOT your friend if you manage a professional sports team and the smart ones know it.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Meh. I think that two things can be true at the same time. Mercedes handled the situation incorrectly and La Russa handled the situation incorrectly.

Not all unwritten rules are bad because they are unwritten rules (saying unwritten rules are bad seems to be trending these days). Players have never enjoyed being called out publically, but today's players respond to it vastly differently than in years past.

Any unwritten rules are bad because they are often used wrongly to scapegoat certain people while others are given a pass. Optional enforcement of any rule is always wrong.

[ThatSeventiesGuy]

Kinda saw this coming with the White Sox since the day LaRussa was hired. Young team + old fogey manager = explosive mixture. While talent was carrying them, it was bound to blow up sooner or later.

Never could understand why you shouldn't swing at a 3-0 pitch with a big lead if you get something good to hit, though. Isn't that helping the team? I mean, baseball has no time clock, so theoretically a team could come back from 10 runs or more down.

[Izz]

Originally Posted by ThatSeventiesGuy

Never could understand why you shouldn't swing at a 3-0 pitch with a big lead if you get something good to hit, though. Isn't that helping the team? I mean, baseball has no time clock, so theoretically a team could come back from 10 runs or more down.

And if the other team has put a position player on the mound, aren't they basically saying they've conceded the game and don't care anymore? So why should they get upset if a hitter goes big on a 3-0 count? And really, since they just want the game over with, shouldn't their hitters just be take, take, taking until the last out?

[Westheim]

So what's the solution to all of this? Mercy rule? 10 runs and we go home? 12?

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

My opinion is, La Russa is clueless in three ways:
1) For publicly insulting one of his players.
2) For attempting to dismiss the indiscretion as if what Mercedes thinks does not matter.
3) For distorting a courtesy into a stupid rule. So, you take the next pitch on a 3-0 count when you are up by how many runs?

Well, y'know, this kind of behavior, don't know how it happened, but LaRussa is a Trump supporter.

[Syd Thrift]

We also shouldn’t forget the unwritten rule that LaRussa is useless without his pitching coach Dave Duncan.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

We also shouldn’t forget the unwritten rule that LaRussa is useless without his pitching coach Dave Duncan.

Ethan Katz - after taking a quick glance at both the standings and the AL team pitching leaderboards - may not question the extent of LaRussa's uselessness, but would still like a word

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by RchW

Any unwritten rules are bad because they are often used wrongly to scapegoat certain people while others are given a pass. Optional enforcement of any rule is always wrong.

They can be used wrongly, sure. As can written rules.

[albatross11]

More on this "silliness:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unwrit...es_of_baseball

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unspoken_rule