Christmas Wish 2020: Please Put Women's Baseball in OOTP!

[CBeisbol]

Again

Everyone here who is willing to suspend reality so that they can have a universe where WW2 didn't happen, and that the 94 strike didn't happen, and that the 2020 pandemic didn't happen, and that every country (available) on (OOTP's) earth has enough major league quality players to fill a league of any size, but who aren't willing to suspend reality for female players, are telling on themselves.

Sure, I can have a 10 team league of MLB level players all from Tokelau (population 1400) and they don't bat an eye becaue "men" but if I want a ten team league of women players it's "show me the data" and "those are man stats" (whatever that means).

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Sure you can. What's stopping you?

OOTP, of course

And miss me with the "you can pretend" stuff.

That answer wouldn't suffice if I wanted to make players of different nationalities, teams in different cities, teams with different nicknames, leagues in different countries, etc... And OOTP didn't explicitly allow for it.

I never suggested any such thing Yet more dishonesty on your part. If anyone is discounting stats, it's you, not me.

Of course you did

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

men's stats.... North American stats.

I filled in the details because you neglected to. Feel free to explain what these are

What's a man home run?
A North American win?
A female stolen base?
An African save?


Is there a North American man run scored?
Did Ichiro get those? Or nah?
Does Jesus Luzardo get North American or South American man strike outs?

[Syd Thrift]

There *are* women executives now and there have been women owners for decades so at the very, very least, the "where's the data????" argument fails to address that. If I want to recreate a 1980s era league, I can't 100% do it because "Mark" Schott is going to be the owner of the Reds.

[joefromchicago]

[deleted]

[DJ_Jak_32]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

Create hundreds of major league quality male baseball players out of thin air?

Yes. Anyone can do that with OOTP

But no one can create a female player.

.

Currently the game does not show gender when it comes to the players, so you can create whatever you choose to create. Unless you mean when it comes to the news stories and what pronouns are used to describe the player, coach or front office. But with the Marlins hiring of Kim Ng, I would not be surprised if that changes soon.

And for those saying that some of the women who played in the Indy leagues in recent years, load up a game and search for some of them.....they are in there and some have stats.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

See how that works? A Tuvaluan male is a male from Tuvalu. I'll let you figure out what a North American stat is.

You're very smart
And I'm very dumb

So, help me understand this

When Ichiro was playing in Japan, were those North American stats? Yes or no?
When Ichiro was playing in MLB, were those North American stats? Yes or no?
When Ichiro played MLB games in Japan, were those North American stats? Yes or no?

When Hyun-Jin Ryu (from Asia) pitched for the Dodgers (from North America) in Sydney (Australia) against the D-Backs (from North America) and Martin Prado (from South America) were those North American stats? Yes or no? If no, what continent are those stats from? Were Ryu's pitching stats North American? Asian? Australian? South American? How about Prado's batting stats? Dual citizenship?

This idea, that you completely made up, of stats being from a continent is confusing to me. And, I think, in a display that Dunning and Kruger would be amused by, it's pretty good evidence that you don't actually know what you are talking about.


Now, if a Tuvaluvan male is a male from Tuvalu.
A man stat must be a stat from man?
Yeah, I don't get that one either.

Now, you may feel compelled to say that a man stat is a stat from a man. But, again, you run into problems once you start to think about that. If a man pitches to a woman and the woman singles, is that a man single? Or a woman single?
Is it a man single for the male pitcher and the female hitter?
Or is it a woman single for the male pitcher and the female hitter?
Or is it a male single for the male pitcher and a woman single for the female hitter?
Or is it a woman single for the male pitcher and a male single for the female hitter?

And what if it's not a single, but an error on a male second baseman that scores a female runner from third?

Is that...inhales...a man unearned run or a woman unearned run?
Or a man unearned run for the male pitcher, a woman run scored for the female runner, and a man error for the male second baseman?
Or a woman unearned run for the male pitcher, a man run scored for the female runner, and a woman error for the male second baseman?
etc...


So, either provide direct answers to the above questions, or it will be assumed that you outsmarted yourself into a corner. But, hey, at least you will have you outsmarted someone.


Who are we kidding. You won't answer, because you are completely full of it.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

How?


Says the guy with the Tuvalu baseball league

OOTP says the Tuvaluvan baseball league is from Tuvalu
OOTP says all the players are men.

Sure, we could pretend they are women even when OOTP says they are men

Just like we could pretend a team is from Funafuti even if OOTP said it was from New York

But the game allows us to create a team that the game says is from Funafuti. And doesn't let us a create a player that says is a woman.

Get it?
I think you're smart enough to
I think you'll pretend you're not smart enough to. Because you'd rather come across as not smart than what you really are.

It's always refreshing when someone admits they're being dishonest. Thanks for that!

Not being dishonest
Faced with a lack of information, I made an assumption. The assumption being that you think women are less than men.
I see no reason to change that assumption

I assumed that you didn't know anything about statistics, and this thread is giving me the impression that you don't know anything about women, but I didn't think I'd have to explain to you how the English language works.

English, I'm ok with
It's what you're trying to pass of as logic that I'm struggling with.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by DJ_Jak_32

Currently the game does not show gender when it comes to the players, so you can create whatever you choose to create. Unless you mean when it comes to the news stories and what pronouns are used to describe the player, coach or front office. But with the Marlins hiring of Kim Ng, I would not be surprised if that changes soon.

That would be a good start.

And for those saying that some of the women who played in the Indy leagues in recent years, load up a game and search for some of them.....they are in there and some have stats.

Woman stats?

Are those available in the league splits?

[joefromchicago]

[deleted]

[joefromchicago]

[deleted]

[BaseballNewsNow]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

At last, a point upon which we can both agree.

I've read through this thread a few times, and I still can't wrap my head around some things that people are saying. I offer you, Joefromchicago, a few questions and points:

What do you gain out of making fun of cbesibol? He already gets harrassed by many others by here. This is the lowest forms of low; clearly you, in some form or another, are uneducated or just plain ignorant to others' opinions. But going after someone by changing their quote? That's just plain low.

Why do you care if people want women in their games? That seems to be direction that this world is headed: equal genders, the way that it should be. So why shouldn't a baseball simulator reflect that? And of course, if you just can't live with women in your games, there will of course an option to turn it off.

Of course making fun of cbeisbol wasn't enough, you had to promote yourself in the process. If you could sit back and just take a deep breath, you would realize that they're both just opinions. Just because you disagree with him doesn't mean that you are automatically right, you are smart, and he is stupid.

One final point, this feels like I am lecturing a child that is bullying another child. And cbeisbol, don't take this like I think you can't handle an ignorant person's pov, I just had to step in and voice my opinion.

[Bobfather]

2) Allow for co-ed leagues with ciswomen, transfeminine, and non-binary players represented. While we love our male players obviously, I think OOTP should allow for representation for players of all gender identities.

Thank you for reading and I hope fellow gamers on here will support this request [/QUOTE]

[Bobfather]

Who's to say they are not already in the game. Just because only one player has come out, Billy Bean (not the GM) doesn't mean there haven't been others. The only way I can think of for OOTP to add all of the above would have to be a storyline in a fictional league IE Tom and his husband Jerry...

[ThePretender]

Seriously? People are against this? That's pretty damn pathetic. If you don't want this as an option don't use it, and let the people who want to do this, use it.

[BaseballGOAT]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

OOTP says the Tuvaluvan baseball league is from Tuvalu
OOTP says all the players are men.

Sure, we could pretend they are women even when OOTP says they are men

Just like we could pretend a team is from Funafuti even if OOTP said it was from New York

But the game allows us to create a team that the game says is from Funafuti. And doesn't let us a create a player that says is a woman.

Get it?
I think you're smart enough to
I think you'll pretend you're not smart enough to. Because you'd rather come across as not smart than what you really are.



Not being dishonest
Faced with a lack of information, I made an assumption. The assumption being that you think women are less than men.
I see no reason to change that assumption



English, I'm ok with
It's what you're trying to pass of as logic that I'm struggling with.

Long time listener, first time caller... lol sorry tired joke. But I actually signed up since I felt the need to actually respond to this. How is it that you can't have a woman in your league? I've recently moved into 2024 in my favorite saved game and I have probably the league's best 5th starter. Ginny Baker from the tv show Pitch. I added her to the low minors when i first started the game in 2019 season. Yes, it took a little work, but it wasn't that daunting. Played with the facegen program first off, then gave her a fastball that tops out at 82, lower stamina since women aren't as strong as men, then gave her 1 across the board for hitting since a woman would be overmatched against a male MLB pitcher. Then lastly, I gave her some really good offspeed pitches to give her the chance to be successful and it has worked out just like I wanted. I even go back and edit her stories in the news section to make it less messy. It's been a fun experiment honestly

[RonCo]

I strongly support adding the ability to include women in the game if a person so desires to make such a league. Period.

[MaeNekoChan]

UPDATE REGARDING STATISTICS AND DATA

Hey guys so I followed the links Effectively Wild presented in podcast #1632 and so here is Luisa Gauci's presentation this year at the SABR/IWBC Women in Baseball Conference. She uses the statistics from the 2018 Women's Baseball World Cup that I mentioned earlier in this thread in order to create a 20-80 scale tailored towards the current landscape of the women's game. Here's a screenshot of the chart she uses in her presentation for those who would like to see:



This could provide a baseline for data in a contemporary women's league, especially if the Devs choose to add the Women's World Cup like I suggested previously. Here's a link to an article written about Luisa and other women's work at Driveline for some more context on this issue, plus a link to Baseball For All which is a nonprofit attempting to promote gender equality in baseball if you're interested in this topic any further ^_^

As I understand, Luisa is fairly responsive and enthusiastic about this stuff on social media, so I would encourage the Devs to reach out to her for advise on modeling women players in upcoming versions of the game.

[MaeNekoChan]

Originally Posted by BaseballGOAT

Long time listener, first time caller... lol sorry tired joke. But I actually signed up since I felt the need to actually respond to this. How is it that you can't have a woman in your league? I've recently moved into 2024 in my favorite saved game and I have probably the league's best 5th starter. Ginny Baker from the tv show Pitch. I added her to the low minors when i first started the game in 2019 season. Yes, it took a little work, but it wasn't that daunting. Played with the facegen program first off, then gave her a fastball that tops out at 82, lower stamina since women aren't as strong as men, then gave her 1 across the board for hitting since a woman would be overmatched against a male MLB pitcher. Then lastly, I gave her some really good offspeed pitches to give her the chance to be successful and it has worked out just like I wanted. I even go back and edit her stories in the news section to make it less messy. It's been a fun experiment honestly

Hey BaseballGOAT, thanks for calling in!

That sounds like a really awesome experiment and you're right! That is something we can do in the game. However, the problem I and others are trying to raise in this thread is not so much about getting women to pitch in MLB or whatever, but allowing for women to have their own leagues represented in-game. Likewise, even to your point about being able to create women in your leagues, that's not quite the same as the game generating women and non-binary players organically. It's definitely better than nothing, but I think the changes we're looking for are a little more substantial But all the same, that sounds like a lot of fun and if you haven't already I'm sure people would enjoy reading about your playthrough in Dynasty reports. Cheers

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Baseball statistics come from all over the world, but the most developed set of statistics is that from professional leagues located in North America. There have been professional baseball teams in North America since 1869. The statistics, therefore, are North American, in the sense that they are derived from teams and leagues located in North America. Players who are on North American teams accumulate those statistics. Players on teams that are not based in North America, in contrast, do not.

Ahhh...so what you meant by "North American stats" was "statistics from players who play on teams based in North America" and not any of the other numerous things you could have meant by that. Got it.

I'm so dumb. I couldn't even know what you meant by the term that you made up out of nowhere. Seems like you, being very smart, could have known that other people couldn't read your mind, but, anyway.


Let's go back to where this started

This was, I believe, where you introduced your made up idea of "North American stats"

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Just as you're satisfied with having Tuvaluan men with North American stats. That's the kind of accommodation that you're apparently willing to make

But, this is not correct. Tuvaluan men don't have American stats. What would that even mean in the context of OOTP?

Perhaps what you meant to say, was that the model used by OOTP is based on statistics from North American professional teams (or something similar). That would make sense.

But, I don't see how that helps your argument.

Yes, I'm willing to use the OOTP model based on statistics from teams based on North American professional teams (if, in fact, that is what the OOTP model is based on. Can anyone confirm?) for leagues based in (and teams and players from) Tuvalu, South America, Ukraine, the United Arab Emirates, Comoros, Mauritania, or Slovenia

I'm also willing to use it for female players.

You are the one who is, apparently, willing to use it for Tuvalu, South America, Ukraine, the United Arab Emirates, Comoros, Mauritania, and Slovenia but not for women.

Why?

Why do you assume that men from the above locations would perform like men who play on professional teams based in North America but that women would not?

I agree that women would not.

But, I disagree that men from Tuvalu, South America, Ukraine, the United Arab Emirates, Comoros, Mauritania, and Slovenia would perform like men who play on professional teams based in North America. Why would they?

North America, as you pointed out, has 150 years of baseball history. Nearly all the men who play in the professional leagues in North America, grew up playing baseball. That would not be true in Tuvalu, South America, Ukraine, the United Arab Emirates, Comoros, Mauritania, and Slovenia. They wouldn't receive the same coaching as players who play for professional teams in North America.

I mean, again, it's pure fiction that Tuvalu (or Tokelau) has enough men to field a 10 team MLB quality league starting tomorrow. But I don't see you here asking for the data on that. Why not?

So, yeah, I can suspend belief and imagine that tomorrow 250 men from Takelau would perform like men who played played professional baseball in North America. And I can also suspend belief and imagine that tomorrow 1 woman could perform like men who played professional baseball in America.

You seem to be able to suspend belief and imagine that tomorrow 250 men from Takelau would perform like men who played professional baseball in North America.

But you can't suspend belief and imagine that 1 woman could perform like men who played professional baseball in America.

Why not?
Seems...curious

You've drawn a line. That line is not arbitrary.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by BaseballGOAT

Long time listener, first time caller... lol sorry tired joke. But I actually signed up since I felt the need to actually respond to this. How is it that you can't have a woman in your league? I've recently moved into 2024 in my favorite saved game and I have probably the league's best 5th starter. Ginny Baker from the tv show Pitch. I added her to the low minors when i first started the game in 2019 season. Yes, it took a little work, but it wasn't that daunting. Played with the facegen program first off, then gave her a fastball that tops out at 82, lower stamina since women aren't as strong as men, then gave her 1 across the board for hitting since a woman would be overmatched against a male MLB pitcher. Then lastly, I gave her some really good offspeed pitches to give her the chance to be successful and it has worked out just like I wanted. I even go back and edit her stories in the news section to make it less messy. It's been a fun experiment honestly

Welcome, BBG.

Cool that you did that. But that's not for everyone.

The easiest way to think of it, for me, is imagine it's not sex, but race or ethnicity.

If face-gen only had white faces, but you could edit them to darker skin tones if you wanted.

Or if the names were all Caucasian (then joefromchicago wouldn't have had to waste her time making their Euro-centric name sets) and you just had to pretend that "John Smith" was "Juan Herrera"

Would that fly? No way.

It shouldn't fly for women

Women play baseball
There have been and are female leagues
They should be in OOTP