Batting order?

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Questdog

I play in historical fictional leagues, when batting the pitcher outside the 9 hole was just not done.

They could also, kinda, hit

But, even in a modern league, I would not bat the pitcher out of the 9 hole, even is he was a better hitter than the #8 hitter. It causes more problems than it solves. For one thing, it brings the pitcher's spot to bat sooner in the late innings and will sometimes forces you to pinch-hit for a pitcher that you would otherwise be able to keep in the game. And getting on base in front of the top of the order is less important, to me, than having someone who can drive in a run up when the 5 hitter leads off an inning and gets on base. The #8 hitter is most likely to be the one batting with 2 outs and a runner on base.

Yes, the pitcher's spot will *sometimes* come up with a man on and two out

It will *always* come up with one of your best hitters in the on deck circle

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

They could also, kinda, hit


Yes, the pitcher's spot will *sometimes* come up with a man on and two out

It will *always* come up with one of your best hitters in the on deck circle

But having a better hit up with a runner on and 2 outs is much more important than having a better hitter in general batting ahead of your lead-off man, especially in settings where teams are not hitting 300 HR a season and your lead off man is a 30 HR fella. In the current strikeout, walk and home run only environment, batting order, in general, is much less important. And it never was all that important to begin with. But voluntarily giving your worst hitter more at bats, by batting him higher in the order, does not seem so smart to me....

[CBeisbol]

Aside from having your best hitter take all the plate appearances, there are always going to be trade offs

Originally Posted by Questdog

But having a better hit up with a runner on and 2 outs is much more important than having a better hitter in general batting ahead of your lead-off man, especially in settings where teams are not hitting 300 HR a season and your lead off man is a 30 HR fella.

I think that's probably an overgeneralization.
Which is better does depend on the relative qualities of the hitters, which, of course, impacts things like how often the #8 hitter comes to bat with a runner on base and how often the leadoff hitter will come to bat with the #9 hitter on base.

Which, I should point out, is the exact thing that the Batting Analysis tool that I posted above is designed to figure out. And, yes, it does ignore things like player speed, potential pinch hit opportunities, etc...

In the current strikeout, walk and home run only environment, batting order, in general, is much less important. And it never was all that important to begin with.

Right
In the example I posted above, though it's not shown, the difference between the best line up (Rickey Henderson batting leadoff, Mike Piazza second, the pitcher 8th, and Jose Offerman 9th) and the worst (a near opposite of that (pitcher leading off, Offerman second, Piazza 8th and Henderson 9th) was about .8 runs per game. So (.8 × 162) 130ish runs per season or 13 wins. Now that's a lot, but no reasonable lineup is going to be less than a couple of wins worse than the ideal lineup.

But voluntarily giving your worst hitter more at bats, by batting him higher in the order, does not seem so smart to me....

That's one of the trade offs

If your starting pitcher is 1) a terrible hitter, and 2) routinely going deep into games and getting 4 or 5 plate appearances then, that more reason to hit them ninth. Somewhat paradoxically, if you pitcher is a good (for a pitcher) hitter, that's also reason to bat them ninth (a less terrible hitter hitting ahead of the top of your order. But, if your starting pitcher Is only expected to get 2 plate appearances and then pinch hitters will get those plate appearances the rest of the game, and those pinch hitters are better hitters (or can be leveraged to be better hitters) than the #9 hitter, then it makes more sense to bat the pitcher 8th.

Again, there are also trade offs

The example lineup I posted above is almost ideal for this.
The leadoff hitter has a very good OBP and some power
The #2 hitter is an all around excellent hitter with power
The #9 hitter has an above average OBP but minimal power

Because the leadoff hitter gets a lot of extra base hits, one doesn't want the pitcher hitting directly in front of them. So a high OBP hitter is ideal. But since that hitter is still one of the worst overall hitters in the team, you want to limit their plate appearances, not increase them by hitting at the top of the order.



I should also say, or I want to say, that this is an excellent example of why I engage with people i disagree with. I don't think Questdog is going to convince me, and I'm not trying to convince Questdog, but discussions like these (so long as they avoid degenerating into insult fests) bring more information to the forum from which people can draw their own conclusions.

[Questdog]

For me, the biggest problem with hitting the pitcher 8th, has nothing to do with scoring more runs, but with the fact that the pitcher's spot comes up earlier in the late innings and forces you to lift a pitcher more often for a pinch-hitter. 1) it makes you use more relievers and 2) makes you lift a pitcher that you wish you could keep in there.

In the environment that I play (5 man Bullpens), it is no small thing. But even with a 7 or 8 man relief corps (though I never use 8 relievers), it can be very inconvenient at times.

P.S. And as long as you keep to the argument and avoid disrespecting the poster, I do not mind arguing anything....

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Questdog

For me, the biggest problem with hitting the pitcher 8th, has nothing to do with scoring more runs, but with the fact that the pitcher's spot comes up earlier in the late innings and forces you to lift a pitcher more often for a pinch-hitter. 1) it makes you use more relievers and 2) makes you lift a pitcher that you wish you could keep in there.

Again
This is only a problem is some styles of play
In others, as I posted above, it can be leveraged to be an advantage.


For me, in some games, the pitcher is coming up for their 3rd plate appearance just when I want to replace them with a reliever. So, it works out. And in the game I'm playing most now, I frequently hit for the pitcher, then have a decision with the #9 hitter. As I said, they have a high OBP but little power. So, it often happens that I get the two out, runner on, pitcher up situation. So, I hit for the pitcher. If the pinch hitter reaches, I often, then, hit for the #9 hitter (who walks a lot) because I want someone to drive the runs in. If the pinch hitter gets out, I let the #9 hitter lead off the next inning to try to get in base before Henderson and Piazza. Also, my #9 hitter is a poor defensive second baseman, so they are removed late in games for a whiz defensive player.

So, in my situation, hitting the pitcher 8th is pretty close to ideal

There are, as you point out, other situations where it is less ideal.

And, again, this is where the Batting Analysis tool can provide some insight.

[ALB123]

Questdog and CBeisbol...and anyone else who feels like responding...

How long does it take you before you decide to make fairly substantial changes to your batting order? If you have a Frank Thomas style player hitting most likely in the 3-4-5 area, will you move him down the order if he has a crap April? What if he's having so-so production, but his power numbers are down quite a bit? Same thing for a leadoff hitter, for example, if his OBP is down .100 for the month of June, would you consider replacing him in the leadoff slot?

Hopefully, you know what I mean... If it goes from being a real big slump to worrying "what's going on with my cleanup hitter", for example, how do you handle that other than straight out benching the guy? Of course, benching is always an option, but let's pretend we're not quite there just yet.

Finally, in real life, we all know the significance of batting before a power hitter or after a power hitter or being tossed in the 7th or 8th slot... Does that really matter in OOTP? Does the AI pitcher approach an at-bat with the knowledge of who's coming up next and what that on-deck hitter is capable of? Or Does the AI pitcher approach an at-bat any differently if there are runners in scoring position facing the #6 batter versus no runners on and facing the same #6 hitter?

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by ALB123

Questdog and CBeisbol...and anyone else who feels like responding...

How long does it take you before you decide to make fairly substantial changes to your batting order? If you have a Frank Thomas style player hitting most likely in the 3-4-5 area, will you move him down the order if he has a crap April? What if he's having so-so production, but his power numbers are down quite a bit? Same thing for a leadoff hitter, for example, if his OBP is down .100 for the month of June, would you consider replacing him in the leadoff slot?

Hopefully, you know what I mean... If it goes from being a real big slump to worrying "what's going on with my cleanup hitter", for example, how do you handle that other than straight out benching the guy? Of course, benching is always an option, but let's pretend we're not quite there just yet.

Finally, in real life, we all know the significance of batting before a power hitter or after a power hitter or being tossed in the 7th or 8th slot... Does that really matter in OOTP? Does the AI pitcher approach an at-bat with the knowledge of who's coming up next and what that on-deck hitter is capable of? Or Does the AI pitcher approach an at-bat any differently if there are runners in scoring position facing the #6 batter versus no runners on and facing the same #6 hitter?

I like to play like it is real life, even if I know it does not really matter in the game. If a star player is in a bad slump and I have someone else that could take his spot in the lineup effectively, I will drop them down in the order until they get their mojo back. Besides, you never know in OOTP whether it is just an unlucky stretch or his ratings have tanked. I play mostly stats only, so this is more true, but even with ratings on, what you see and what actually is are not the same.

As far as the A.I. pitching differently to players in front of power hitters, I think it only matters if deciding to intentionally walk someone. It will hardly ever walk a good hitter to get to a worse hitter with 2 outs, except to walk the #8 hitter to get to the pitcher. It likes to intentionally walk players to set up double plays, but will sometimes not walk a batter who is worse than the on deck hitter, when it would usually issue an intentional pass otherwise.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by ALB123

Questdog and CBeisbol...and anyone else who feels like responding...

How long does it take you before you decide to make fairly substantial changes to your batting order? If you have a Frank Thomas style player hitting most likely in the 3-4-5 area, will you move him down the order if he has a crap April? What if he's having so-so production, but his power numbers are down quite a bit? Same thing for a leadoff hitter, for example, if his OBP is down .100 for the month of June, would you consider replacing him in the leadoff slot?

Hopefully, you know what I mean... If it goes from being a real big slump to worrying "what's going on with my cleanup hitter", for example, how do you handle that other than straight out benching the guy? Of course, benching is always an option, but let's pretend we're not quite there just yet.

I'm very lenient

A month is a small sample.

When I start to get concerned, I selectively give players days off. A right-handed hitter vs a super tough righty? That's a good game to sit. A terrible lefty is on the mound? They'll be in the lineup.

[ALB123]

I'm much more lenient as well.

For instance, I have Bernie Williams & Barry Bonds on my current roster (1993 Yanks). Unless one of 'em is hitting .210 or has an OBP and/or SLG% in the crapper from a LONG stretch, they're going to be my #3, #4, or #5 hitter in my lineup. Full Stop. I'm much more inclined to bench 'em for a few games or platoon him, but I also try to play OOTP 99.9% like I am the real-life manager/GM of a professional baseball team.

Bernie, maybe, because he didn't have nearly the ego Bonds had...but, I am never going to hit Barry Bonds #7. If I'm at the point where I need to make Barry Bonds my #7 hitter, chances are I'd rather put him on the chopping block, shop him around and get rid of him. The cost to have him produce #7 hitter stats would be outrageous and not worth it, in my opinion.

Like CBeisbol said... To me, a month of inconsistency and struggles at the plate isn't enough for me to panic. It's nice to know I'm not alone... I figured if anyone was going to approach this with the mindset of a real baseball manager it would be you guys. I've come a long way and am now comfortable, to a certain degree, considering advanced metrics to help me decide on players - trying to be a successful GM. In application, however, I'm probably always going to be more old school with things like my lineups.

Some day when I decide to start a brand new saved game, going stats only sounds like an interesting way to go. It certainly must add an entirely new level of difficulty for OOTP GMs.

[Brad K]

Sorry but I mostly let AI do it. Occasionally AI will put a low OBP guy in leadoff because he can steal bases. Or a slow running HR hitter #2 because his OBP is good due to walks. I don't put up with that stuff.

Also AI will sometimes take a LH batter who hits high in the order against RHP and hit him 7th or 8th against LHP. Once I get out of the lots of complete games era I move them up with the idea they won't be facing the starter the entire game.

[mytreds]

I play GM mode, so I press “manager selects depth charts and lineups” and sit back and watch. (I rarely, rarely force positions, usually for roleplay or phenom reasons)

[mytreds]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

They could also, kinda, hit


Yes, the pitcher's spot will *sometimes* come up with a man on and two out

It will *always* come up with one of your best hitters in the on deck circle

Don’t worry, after this season, universal DH is coming much quicker.

[Brad K]

Does offense increase with the DH?

Or does the ability to leave in pitchers who are doing well negate the advantage of the DH?

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Does offense increase with the DH?

Or does the ability to leave in pitchers who are doing well negate the advantage of the DH?

I sorry
Why does not having a DH mean you have to take out a pitcher?

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Does offense increase with the DH?

Or does the ability to leave in pitchers who are doing well negate the advantage of the DH?

Offense increases with the DH....
The gap between the quality of the DH over the pitcher hitting is a lot wider than the gap of the pitcher left in over his replacement.

[CBeisbol]

Why are teams brining in worse pitchers in Brad's world?

[Hrycaj]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

Don't know why I didn't think of this when this discussion was more fresh

https://www.baseballmusings.com/cgi-...eupAnalysis.py

It allows you to enter OBP and SLG to compare different lineups.

It doesn't consider handedness nor baserunning. Which are, of course, secondary and tertiary concerns to hitting ability.

Late to the game on this topic but I have a question about the analyzer. When you enter in the information are you using season of career stats? I'm thinking career stats would give you a better sample size but it may skew the numbers because a hitter may be on the downside of their career but still have favorable stats. So maybe just look at stats from the last full season?

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Hrycaj

Late to the game on this topic but I have a question about the analyzer. When you enter in the information are you using season of career stats? I'm thinking career stats would give you a better sample size but it may skew the numbers because a hitter may be on the downside of their career but still have favorable stats. So maybe just look at stats from the last full season?

Projected stats

Whatever you feel most accurately represents that player's current skill level

I use projected stats based off ratings, then you can factor in handedness.

[Syd Thrift]

Just wanted to add here that it’s fun to have rules about your lineups and it does add immersion but let’s be clear that unless you do *really* stupid things like order your lineup by reverse OBP, there’s very little difference between one lineup’s ability to score runs and another potential one’s. CBeisbol’s own tracker showed 5.42 R/G using an “optimized” lineup vs. 5.41 R/G for his own.

I personally like using a more traditional lineup because it helps me identify with players a little more but again, this is really and truly a situation where your own mileage may vary.

[Hrycaj]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

Projected stats

Whatever you feel most accurately represents that player's current skill level

I use projected stats based off ratings, then you can factor in handedness.

Thanks. It is a stats only enviornment so projected stats it is.