Is Manny Mota the best sub ever? - Page 2

Brad K · 07-16-2020, 08:09 PM

OK, OK, what I meant was a non regular who played a lot, not someone who came in as a defensive substitute or a PH or PR. My standard as could be discerned from the original post is never having enough PAs to qualify for the batting championship. If a guy plays when someone is hurt or needs a rest that is a sub, isn't it?

Syd Thrift · 07-16-2020, 08:30 PM

No, a sub is a delicious sandwich.

CBeisbol · 07-16-2020, 08:32 PM

Underwater boat

Syd Thrift · 07-16-2020, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

Underwater boat

Agree to disagree

TheMaus2 · 07-16-2020, 09:53 PM

finally, some civil effing discourse

Brad K · 07-16-2020, 10:11 PM

In contrast in 1969 Cesar Tovar got in 158 games with 591 plate appearances but didn't lead in games played at any position for the Twins. Which makes him a regular without a position.

Same thing for Al Oliver in 1970. He was second on the team in G and PA but didn't lead in games at any position.

CONN CHRIS · 07-17-2020, 06:36 AM

I have no idea why, but every time I think of collecting cards as a kid, Cesar Tovar's 1972 card and Mitchel Page's 1978 card come into focus in my mind.

Weird. No one cares a lick, but there you go.

Rasmuth · 07-17-2020, 11:39 AM

man...when I was a kid in the 70's and I was all about the Dodgers...loved Manny Mota

Brad K · 07-17-2020, 12:08 PM

For his career Mota had two more PAs against LHP than RHP. Meaning his managers strongly played the lefty righty game. Assumptions are a bad thing.

Mota career vs LHP: 304/363/397
Mota career vs RHP: 308/350/387

CBeisbol · 07-17-2020, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad K

For his career Mota had two more PAs against LHP than RHP. Meaning his managers strongly played the lefty righty game. Assumptions are a bad thing.

Mota career vs LHP: 304/363/397
Mota career vs RHP: 308/350/387

Vs R: 1.3 K/BB ratio
Vs L: .96 K/BB ratio

Not sure how many of those were IBB but looks like he controlled the strike zone better vs left-handed pitching

Assumptions are never a bad thing. They are necessary for survival. Assuming your assumptions are always correct, though, can be problematic.

Brad K · 07-17-2020, 03:24 PM

That sure didn't result in much of a difference in OBP.

swoboda · 07-17-2020, 04:18 PM

Throwing Vic Davalillo into the mix, he loses points for being mostly a starter during the first third of his career but gains points for being teammates with Manny Mota in LA !

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...avalvi01.shtml

rink23 · 07-17-2020, 04:58 PM

Pinch-hitting for Pedro Borbon ....

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/332afeb...3-e69e6795254c

Brad K · 07-17-2020, 05:13 PM

I remember seeing him with the Indianapolis Indians. At the time he was noticeably faster than other AAA pitchers.

Brad K · 07-17-2020, 05:15 PM

Speaking of Davalillo, a couple years after Mota left Davalillo became the Pirates "good enough to be a starter on a lot of teams" first off the bench outfielder.

thehef · 07-17-2020, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad K

In contrast in 1969 Cesar Tovar got in 158 games with 591 plate appearances but didn't lead in games played at any position for the Twins. Which makes him a regular without a position.

Same thing for Al Oliver in 1970. He was second on the team in G and PA but didn't lead in games at any position.

Ditto Richie Allen with the '71 Dodgers. Split his time at 1B, 3B, and LF in 155 total games, but didn't lead the team in games played at any of those positions. Led the team in HR & RBI though and was almost always the cleanup hitter no matter where he played...

Jim Northrup, Tommy Davis, Bobby Thomson, Orlando Cepeda, Pedro Guerrero, Billy Goodman, also come to mind as those who had seasons where they were everyday players but who didn't have an everyday position... There are probably lots of others...

mirrf · 07-17-2020, 06:11 PM

In the mix is Cliff Johnson who was a "catcher" / 1B / LF who never once had 500 plate appearances in a season. He still ended up with 197 career homers with an OPS of .815. He probably would have been comparable to Tony Perez if organizations allowed him to play a less demanding defensive position.

thehef · 07-17-2020, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swoboda

Throwing Vic Davalillo into the mix, he loses points for being mostly a starter during the first third of his career but gains points for being teammates with Manny Mota in LA !

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad K

Speaking of Davalillo, a couple years after Mota left Davalillo became the Pirates "good enough to be a starter on a lot of teams" first off the bench outfielder.

In the twilight of both guys' careers, they played big roles in the Dodgers' ninth-inning comeback, game 3 of the 1977 NLCS. Vic started the improbable rally with a two-out, pinch-hit drag bunt single. Mota followed with a pinch-hit blast off the wall/Greg Luzinski's glove. By the time the half-inning was over, the Dodgers had rallied from a two-run deficit to take a one-run lead, and the stunned Phillies were done.

Brad K · 07-17-2020, 09:32 PM

I didn't follow AL that much but I liked Davalillo way back then. I think he might have been in my All Star Baseball game. Y'know, the Ethan Allen spinner kids game. That may have been how I became aware of him.

thehef · 07-18-2020, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad K

For his career Mota had two more PAs against LHP than RHP. Meaning his managers strongly played the lefty righty game. Assumptions are a bad thing.

Mota career vs LHP: 304/363/397
Mota career vs RHP: 308/350/387

In the early 70's with LA - before he became primarily a pinch-hitter - it wasn't so much that Walter Alston really wanted Mota in the lineup against lefties but not righties, it was more that Mota was mostly a sub, and the main OF's were LH hitters who didn't always hit lefties well (Buckner, Crawford, W Davis), so it stands to reason that Mota had more chances to play against lefties.

07-16-2020, 08:09 PM	#21
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	OK, OK, what I meant was a non regular who played a lot, not someone who came in as a defensive substitute or a PH or PR. My standard as could be discerned from the original post is never having enough PAs to qualify for the batting championship. If a guy plays when someone is hurt or needs a rest that is a sub, isn't it? Last edited by Brad K; 07-16-2020 at 08:10 PM.

07-16-2020, 09:53 PM	#25
TheMaus2 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: The OOTP Forums. Always. Posts: 1,951	finally, some civil effing discourse __________________ I write a monthly newsletter on the Food Baseball Association. I also listen to music no one's ever heard of in hopes of looking cool and alternative.

07-17-2020, 06:36 AM	#27
CONN CHRIS Global Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 29,137	I have no idea why, but every time I think of collecting cards as a kid, Cesar Tovar's 1972 card and Mitchel Page's 1978 card come into focus in my mind. Weird. No one cares a lick, but there you go. __________________ Check Out My Cards!

07-17-2020, 11:39 AM	#28
Rasmuth All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Upstate Western NY Posts: 1,760	man...when I was a kid in the 70's and I was all about the Dodgers...loved Manny Mota __________________ http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...?bandID=250426

07-17-2020, 04:18 PM	#32
swoboda All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Guarding The Line Posts: 1,230	Throwing Vic Davalillo into the mix, he loses points for being mostly a starter during the first third of his career but gains points for being teammates with Manny Mota in LA ! https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...avalvi01.shtml __________________ "...If you want to look ahead to the bottom of the ninth, the Mets will be sending up Buddy Harrelson, Jerry Buchek , and Don Bosch, we'll be right back after this word from Rheingold Beer" The late great Lindsey Nelson Last edited by swoboda; 07-17-2020 at 04:19 PM.

07-16-2020, 08:32 PM	#23
CBeisbol Banned Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: Ban land in 3...2... Posts: 2,943	Underwater boat

07-16-2020, 10:11 PM	#26
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	In contrast in 1969 Cesar Tovar got in 158 games with 591 plate appearances but didn't lead in games played at any position for the Twins. Which makes him a regular without a position. Same thing for Al Oliver in 1970. He was second on the team in G and PA but didn't lead in games at any position.

07-17-2020, 12:08 PM	#29
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	For his career Mota had two more PAs against LHP than RHP. Meaning his managers strongly played the lefty righty game. Assumptions are a bad thing. Mota career vs LHP: 304/363/397 Mota career vs RHP: 308/350/387

07-17-2020, 03:24 PM	#31
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	That sure didn't result in much of a difference in OBP.

07-17-2020, 04:58 PM	#33
rink23 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 25,067	Pinch-hitting for Pedro Borbon .... https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/332afeb...3-e69e6795254c

07-17-2020, 05:13 PM	#34
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	I remember seeing him with the Indianapolis Indians. At the time he was noticeably faster than other AAA pitchers.

07-17-2020, 05:15 PM	#35
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	Speaking of Davalillo, a couple years after Mota left Davalillo became the Pirates "good enough to be a starter on a lot of teams" first off the bench outfielder.

07-17-2020, 09:32 PM	#39
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	I didn't follow AL that much but I liked Davalillo way back then. I think he might have been in my All Star Baseball game. Y'know, the Ethan Allen spinner kids game. That may have been how I became aware of him.