OOTP 21 Scouting Model

[PSUColonel]

Now that version 21 has been out for a few months, I am curious as to what people think of the new scouting model.

What are your likes, dislikes and suggestions?

I for one am considering the whole accuracy "rating" way too "gamey" for my taste. IMO accuracy should be much more organized in that there should be a date attached to each scouting report, and as the report gets older, it may or may not be less reliable. (especially with younger players and prospects). I don't see the need for an "accuracy rating"...after all, it is the job of the GM to figure this out.

Also...the scouting reports just seem way too random for me. I wish there a way or system the developers cold devise which made a little more sense of things. I have always thought there should be a scout for each scouting category (international, minors, amateur, MLB etc...

Any thoughts?

[fuzzy_patters]

I completely agree that it is too gamey. As a player, I shouldn’t know how accurate the scout rating is. I like your idea of replacing it with a date. Then I won’t know if it’s changed since then or not and will have to use my best judgment.

[Matt Arnold]

How it works is actually pretty close to what was described above. Basically the accuracy listed is a combination of both the scouting error plus the age of the report.

Admittedly it is a little gamey, but I view that more as a proxy since you don't directly chat with your scouting director or know how much time they actually spent scouting the player. I like having a quick summary so you don't have to mentally check back on the scouting history, check how many reports have been filed on the player in the past year, count off in your head how long it's been since this report, etc...

But certainly happy to get feedback on the system from anyone. Please do share

[jimmysthebestcop]

Honestly feel it's completely useless. Think I stopped paying attention to the accuracy as I found it didn't effect anything I was doing when evaluating players.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

How it works is actually pretty close to what was described above. Basically the accuracy listed is a combination of both the scouting error plus the age of the report.

Admittedly it is a little gamey, but I view that more as a proxy since you don't directly chat with your scouting director or know how much time they actually spent scouting the player. I like having a quick summary so you don't have to mentally check back on the scouting history, check how many reports have been filed on the player in the past year, count off in your head how long it's been since this report, etc...

But certainly happy to get feedback on the system from anyone. Please do share

What if the date of the most recent report was displayed as opposed to an accuracy rating? One for your scout, and the other for OSA? You would still be able to go back and check history, but at least it would give you an idea of how current the latest reports are.

I’m still going to keep suggesting having a scout for each scouting category though.

[Leo_The_Lip]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

What if the date of the most recent report was displayed as opposed to an accuracy rating? One for your scout, and the other for OSA? You would still be able to go back and check history, but at least it would give you an idea of how current the latest reports are.

I’m still going to keep suggesting having a scout for each scouting category though.

Isn't the point of OSA that it is always 'Average'?

I'm liking the new way with ammy draft scouting. It seems that when a kid reverts to a lower accuracy level--usually HIGH from VERY HIGH once I get rolling, the detailed report will show a change--up or down--in a category. I see this most often with pitchers, and I think this is quite realistic since they play less often and scouts will have fewer opportunities to refine their opinions.

At least that narrative works for me.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

What if the date of the most recent report was displayed as opposed to an accuracy rating? One for your scout, and the other for OSA? You would still be able to go back and check history, but at least it would give you an idea of how current the latest reports are.

I’m still going to keep suggesting having a scout for each scouting category though.

I think you can already do this. I know in my game I added a last date scouted column to my view. I'm guessing you can do this and take out the accuracy column leaving you with just the date.

If you're talking about on the player card then, I guess it would have to be an option. Removing the accuracy icon from the card for everyone? Just no. I suppose that could be replaced with a "days old" line but, how would that be different than the icon? Someone will just make a table that shows 14 days old is "high", 21 days "average", 28 days "low" etc. (pulling numbers out of the air).

Well with the rewrite of 2006 OOTP did have a team of scouts. People complained and it was streamlined to the scouting director. I have no problem going down that path but don't make it a "one per category" position. Just go back to the scouting team and let me decide what I want scouted and by how many scouts.

[Sweed]

I think the new model is at least going in the right direction as it actually requires me to do some work. Old model was set budget and then "break glass when needed" IE request report with next day response. These times were few and far between.

New model shortcomings...

Like many not a fan of reports on my organization getting "old". I understand the argument as to why it is this way "everything can't and isn't up to the minute IRL" but, I think real life might be better represented if info from my team was a "phone call away". Some fluctuation would be there, like vXX and before, with the player development reports that come every couple of months.

Moving players up or down the scout list is a huge pain. I added a guy to the list, that was ~70 players long so he's at position 71. I need the report quickly (trade negotiation going on) and wanted to move him to number 1. I had to click the "move up" button 70 times Drag and drop here would be nice. If not that at least a "move to top" button. With this even if you didn't want the guy at #1 at least you could put him there and slide him down.

It would be nice to have the ability to sort and add columns to the players being scouted list.


The thing I've really liked with the new system is scouting the draft. I play out all of my games so while this works well for me it may not for others.

In old versions I might have a draft board of 15-20 players. These would all be high priority players that would probably be gone in first couple of rounds with maybe a "faller" to 3 or 4. After that the draft became "watch the AI draft up 'til my turn, sort players left (scouting is all good or course), pick from what is left.

V21 I have a draft board of 279 players that I have built up over about 8 weeks of scouting and re-scouting. I first made a "2036 draft" shortlist and a "2036 draft board" SL. I made filters for "draftable P's" and "draftable B's" with minimum skill levels I would accept in a player. I quickly narrowed the field and moved these players to the "draft" SL. Scout that shortlist and as players become "high" and skills are confirmed they are moved to the "draft board" SL. Instead of going to the draft pool most of my work is done in these two short lists. It now becomes a daily job to refine both of these lists and get all of the players to "very high" before the draft. This works well, as noted above, because of my slow rate of play.

The tedious part is deleting all of the reports in my mailbox, though they can also be usable in a quick way. The key here is to not read the emails but get the "best info" from them as I delete. What I do is look at only the current and potential score in each email as I delete them. Anyone that is a 55/80 I may stop for a moment and make a mental note of the name. If you do this daily these names start to stick. Anyone below 55 is just a quick delete and I'm onto the next day. I figure on draft day I'll have everyone on the list on very high or high and I can sort and take the "best player available" with at least one or two skills I value as the talent dwindles in the later rounds.

While this does take time (5 minutes or so per game day) I've enjoyed the experience much more than previous versions. I've thought it to be a fairly realistic representation of what I think building a draft board would be like in real life. The layer of reality it adds is a plus IMHO.

[Dave Stieb II]

I should note in advance that my perspective is not based on simulating multiple seasons. I'm just past the all star break of the 2020 season on my main saved game (so still in the first season). I play all the games out, pitch by pitch, and I usually wait until a few versions of the game have ironed out the bugs before really getting into a saved game.


That said, I'm generally happy with the new scouting system and find it refreshing. I like getting a handful of reports on our own players daily as opposed to the old system of monthly or bi-monthly reports that I found tedious and too time consuming to wade through. And we can request reports as required if one is needed.


As for the 'scouting accuracy' ratings, I not only don't have a problem with them, I kind of like them and don't find them 'gamey' at all. In real life, each player is scouted more or less thoroughly and intensely and more or less often. It usually depends on things like their pedigree, location and status on the food chain. I just convinced myself early on that the scout was telling me the amount and level of recent 'looks' his scouting staff have had, and the degree to which they feel comfortable in their collective assessment.


See, I've created an entire scouting staff for the director in my own mind as well. LOL. It definitely would be nice to have scouts for each area, as suggested, and would add another layer to the game but when it comes to 'gamey' I don't include the refreshed scouting in OOTP21 with morale (a non-starter for me but I do use personalities) and the whole personnel fiasco which, unfortunately, I feel compelled to use despite it's grade three level depth.


I agree with a couple previously suggested enhancements. It should be easier to move players up and down the requested scouting reports list (drag and drop) and, more importantly, there NEEDS to be more of a sense of urgency when a particular scouting report is requested PRONTO.


I just can't seen a real life scouting director telling a GM who has requested an urgent report(s) "yah, I should be able to get around to that in, oh, 16 days." The GM is likely to respond, "don't bother, because I'm giving you 14 days notice effective immediately. Bah bye."


As for 'low' scouting accuracy ratings for players in my own system, I haven't encountered that. I just checked and the only players in my system with low accuracy are the guys in my international complex and that is fine by me for the time being. Perhaps this is something that occurs further into future seasons but at this point any active players in my organization have an average scouting rating at the least.

[Bobbyraz49]

As a 1st. time player of OOTPBB I am just getting into the scouting. I like how it says things like a certain pitcher may be a middle rotation pitcher. I am playing as GM and manager of the 2020 Padres in OOTPBB21.
Currently sitting at 26 wins and 25 losses.
Really enjoying this sim.
And these forums !

[jimmysthebestcop]

I still don't really see the point. I've never see the difference between an average and high report to be all that different. I think it's mostly USELESS, especially if you are using stats to help determine trades, development etc.

Maybe if scouting had a time/knowledge factor. So the more time you spent the more knowledge you gained up until 90-100% or something. And if the potential or stars were unknown/greyed out for younger type players. Or presented as a range.

Current contact is 40 but we expect him to have a ceiling of 60-80. Then once it's at 100% the range could shrink. He is expected to have a potential range of 70-75. It should be like that for everyone who is young and doesn't have like 4 years of a major league experience.

Scouting Accuracy right now seems like it's suppose to be 1 part of a bigger scouting mechanic. But it just seems out of place and useless right now because it doesn't really have any other mechanics that go along with it and help flesh out the entire scouting system as a whole.

I never request a scouting report EVER. And I can have the best farm system and be World Series contender 10 years running. So unless some can show Scouting Accuracy actually having a valid meaning in the game I'm going to continue with its a useless fluff mechanic. Again unless it is 1 piece in a bigger scale scouting mechanic that is coming out down the line.

[ALB123]

I'm not very impressed by scouting in ootp 21. I've never requested a scouting report that produced a new current or potential rating. Maybe I'm missing something, I don't know. When I saw this thread yesterday I went and chose 5 random players that showed Very Low in the accuracy field from 5 different teams and requested scouting reports on each. I read each player's scouting report when they came back. The number of stars and the numeric values for hitting categories & pitching categories remained the same. Out of habit, I usually do request new scouting reports on players I'm interested in, but I've never noticed anything in the reports to make me think the player is better or worse than I thought.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

[Syd Thrift]

TBH they’re still just about useless to me. I have potentials on right now as I wanted to give the system a shot but it makes the game way, way easier when scouting should be neutral at best in terms of added toughness (if anything it should make things harder if you set accuracy to Very Low).

It’s fine for younger players. It completely drops the ball on older players. Scouting reports on veterans should if anything trail the stats they’re putting up by months or years. Instead, you know exactly when a vet falls off a cliff, even before their stat line indicates this. And since even Very Low accuracy scouting does this, it makes the whole endeavor worthless for older players.

I’m going to go back to turning it on for the draft and then turning it right back off for everything else again. Hopefully a future version will be semi realistic.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Now that version 21 has been out for a few months, I am curious as to what people think of the new scouting model.

What are your likes, dislikes and suggestions?

I for one am considering the whole accuracy "rating" way too "gamey" for my taste. IMO accuracy should be much more organized in that there should be a date attached to each scouting report, and as the report gets older, it may or may not be less reliable. (especially with younger players and prospects). I don't see the need for an "accuracy rating"...after all, it is the job of the GM to figure this out.

Also...the scouting reports just seem way too random for me. I wish there a way or system the developers cold devise which made a little more sense of things. I have always thought there should be a scout for each scouting category (international, minors, amateur, MLB etc...

Any thoughts?

I agree with you on accuracy rating being gamey and it also proved to be confusing to some people.

The concept should stay but the rating should go. The older the scouting report, the less accurate it should be. Simple imo.

Knowing if your scouting report is 100% accurate or close to it should be reflected in the written report. That would also add immersion.

A vets written report would use words of confidence (will, is, are, etc) while a young prospect’s report would use words of uncertainty (can, could, maybe, etc) until they are Atleast scouted enough.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Honestly I would just steal how scouting in FM is handled. It's a way better mechanic. But it's also way more complex.

And I think the big thing is ootp tries to keep everything besides universe setup, game day and stats simple.

So I'm not sure if ootp would even want a more complex scouting system. I can say the current scouting system is so simple that it doesn't feel rewarding or fun. Especially when it comes to international amateurs.

There is no pay off at finding a rare gem. If you find some player like that it's because you found them yourselves. Not your scouts. So there is no pay off.

The closest scouting comes to a rewarding payoff to the user is probably the draft.

If you want an obscure minor leaguer prospect just use the search. What purpose does my scout team have. They don't bring you any info.

[Syd Thrift]

The issue with comparing it to FM is that OOTP ratings are by and large directly based on stats. Speed isn't actually line speed, it's SB rate, Power is how often a player hits HRs, and so on. In FM on the other hand, Finishing measures how well a player finds the goal once they're in range but there are like 10 other attributes at least that help them get in range, get open, and so on, and so neither that nor any other single attribute (or, for that matter, any algorithm you can create) measures "goal scoring ability". A lot of that, I'm sure, is due to the highly different nature of the two games: baseball is all about discrete outcomes that are (mostly) down to the interaction of one player vs another one, whereas soccer is highly organic. But the bottom line is, even if your scout tells you that a striker's Finishing just went up from 9 to 12, you have no way of knowing whether that means he's going to score 33% more goals in your system or not. Maybe it'll be 0 more goals.

In OOTP, when a scout notices an uptick in power, they're directly noticing that a player will hit more HRs. This presents a number of issues. IRL, a scout might say that a guy's bat speed has improved, but bat speed alone might not improve HR rate - what if he's still hitting the ball into the ground most of the time, for instance? IRL you'd also notice that a guy is still having problems making consistent contact and that would affect his power but the game engine doesn't work this way. But even if it did, you'd have that same basic issue: scouts aren't telling you if a guy suddenly figured out how to hit the curve, or if he has a hitch in his swing, or any of the other things that real-life scouts tell you when assessing a hitter, they're literally telling you what his statistics will be.

If you wanted to make the game scout like FM, you'd need to do one of two things:

- Completely redo the game engine so that instead of using player "skills" like BABIP or Avoid Ks you'd have a whole mess of attributes that combine to create BABIP, Avoid Ks, and so on. This would require a *lot* of rework in the game and make it very, very hard to do past seasons (which, let's be fair, FM straight up has zero support for historical play).

- Add some kind of layer in between the scout and the actual ratings that will abstract this, which is basically what I've been advocating all along.

Scouting just plain doesn't work right now and won't work until the devs understand why it doesn't work. All of these funky little add-ons do zero to affect this issue.

[RonCo]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

If you wanted to make the game scout like FM, you'd need to do one of two things:

- Completely redo the game engine so that instead of using player "skills" like BABIP or Avoid Ks you'd have a whole mess of attributes that combine to create BABIP, Avoid Ks, and so on. This would require a *lot* of rework in the game and make it very, very hard to do past seasons (which, let's be fair, FM straight up has zero support for historical play).

- Add some kind of layer in between the scout and the actual ratings that will abstract this, which is basically what I've been advocating all along.

Scouting just plain doesn't work right now and won't work until the devs understand why it doesn't work. All of these funky little add-ons do zero to affect this issue.

I like that general assessment.

You wouldn't really even need to add layers to abstract it in the case you're suggesting--which I think is right overall, BTW--even a great scout would be right/wrong often if one were actually evaluating players on the things scouts evaluate players on rather than "simply" projecting ratings (which are, in game, stats rates). The current process and game engine is deeply constrained by its focus on a system that supports historical play, which is obviously a valuable part of the game. But if it's going to get really better in most places, then it probably needs a clean-sheet design of players and their skills...which really means it would need to split into two separate engines. Which will be really, really hard to deal with as a small business, I suppose.

To me the best way to add fog of war folks seem to want is, still, simply to turn scouts off and use ratings at a very coarse resolution (1-5 or 2-8), then maybe even set TCR to a bit more aggressive than the usual.

[Syd Thrift]

Yeah, that's essentially what I do: I actually leave scouting on so that I can read scouting reports of younger players if I want to, but otherwise I turn potential and current ratings off, set defense/speed ratings to 20-80 (I might switch that up to 2-8), and I have TCR at 120 right now (although that's more to counteract some of the effects of the less rapid aging / more rapid development I've got set up).

To me, it's not really just a fog of war issue, it's that scouts play literally the opposite role that scouts play IRL. If you're a GM and you see your 36 year old star 1B start the season 5-40, if you go to your scouts they're going to say "we think he's still good" because they've got almost 20 years of accumulated data saying he's good vs 40 at-bats saying he's not. In OOTP, it's the opposite: you'll see the same guy starting the season 10 for 40 and your scouts will tell you that he's not worth the roster spot.

And even that would be fine if there were *any* type II errors in the game whatsoever. There are not, not for veterans. No matter how low the scouting is, if a scout says a veteran player's ratings went up or down, that is *always* the case, 100% of the time. It literally cannot happen otherwise the way the system works. The new system means that you might not know if a player, particularly one on another team, took a ratings hit or bump, at least if you weren't diligent in scouting the league, but there is no fog of war when it comes to veteran players whatsoever. Zero. It makes the lower settings all but useless.

[jimmysthebestcop]

I've never found anything the scouts say as useful. The paragraph write ups I mean. It's basically nonsense.

I just don't like how the "fog" is implemented. I think it should be ranges that grow smaller not full ratings that just might be wrong.


Plus the whole thing with scouts tools, abilities and osa needs an overhaul. Ability scouts are plain awful. Makes no sense

[SirMichaelJordan]

I use very low accuracy settings and i don’t think the scouting is useless. I’m assuming anything other than very low or even low setting in scouting accuracy, it becomes easy.

On very low settings with a player having a very high accuracy level, the reports are still inaccurate compared to 100% accuracy settings.

Ability scouts are more conservative with their ratings vs Tool scouts who are liberal and would tend to give higher ratings which a player might never reach especially if you are playing at a extreme TCR level.

I agree FM is just a different sport when it comes to scouting, teams literally scout the world for unknown players and even use the game’s database itself to find some hidden gems. In baseball, the top prospects are already known to the world. These days there aren’t really any hidden players. Players from the Caribbean are playing in showcase leagues at the age of 14.

Some Japan teams have their own Dominican academies as well.

Overall the written reports are miles better than the previous incarnations, but I would like to definitely see more information maybe even a player comparison or two.


I’d suggest if scouting decay (accuracy dropping a level) stays, it should be limited to players outside of your 40 man roster (or secondary roster)