For the love of God....fix 3D PbP

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

The more teams you have to spend your time the less they are getting of your time... exactly my point.

I don't even understand the 3D code, I would break it if I would touch it.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Pendragon

This came up recently in the OOTP Mods forum. I'd love to be able to at least recolor the pants, but ideally to add detail (e.g., stripes) as well.

Yup, this is on the OOTP 22 to-do list

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Tony820

Markus, as the OP of this thread, just want to say thank you for responding and love to hear it. I won’t admit to anyone how much time I spend on this game, lol, so obviously my passion for this franchise is deep, I just want a less frustrating experience while playing the day to day grind in 3D.

Can’t wait for the next patch and what’s ahead!

It's all good! We really value constructive criticism. Sometimes it's a bit hard to take (like being compared to SI & Football Manager, who have 10 times as many employees as we do), but I think we do a decent job listening to our customers and try to make as many happy as possible

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

Thanks, Matt. I'll give that a try. But as I just posted, upping the animation speed to fast has already enhanced my in-game enjoyment substantially. I've adapted to the change already (the wine might have helped) and things seem much more fluid, in synch with the pbp, and everything just seems crisper.

Man, I didn't even know that setting was there, oh my God. I have set it to "Slightly Fast" now and it looks great in my opinion. I think I'll turn this into the new default speed for new installations.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by Westheim

Yeah, I was gonna say - wait, what??



The solution to "wonky 3D" according to you is to axe everything that sets the game apart from every other *annual roster upgrade* game?? I think step one should be that instead you should cut out the Lysol........

On a serious note; if you want a semi-pretty game with no customization options, no historical play etc. you should check out Football Manager, might be right up your alley. Don't soil this game like that.

No my solution is to bring the game to the next level in terms of video game experience, and that might mean trimming some of that dead weight. I understand a ton of OOTPb fans aren't gamers or gaming fans in general. And at one time I am sure that was a huge positive in making the series successful. But in modern times I'm of the viewpoint that it is now holding OOTPb back from even greater success in the video game market place.

I just think OOTP should be all about GM mode!!! That mode would appeal to the most gamers hence it would be the popular and move units. And allow content creators to entertain moving more units. GM mode is where the meat is at!

Management games, even Indy, sell like Hotcakes. Gamers don't care if they are managing a lemonade stand, car factory, people, cities, or a baseball organization as long as they can manage something and watch streamers then they are buying it.

Cities Skylines is still popular because of the the insane content creator community around the game. It's 5 years old and still gets regular DLC because there are dozens+ of content creators getting hundreds of thousands of views on their videos daily. So the game constantly has a new wave of a fanbase coming in and buying not just the base game but all the DLC as well.

Honestly in many eyes the annual game is dead. It's going the way of the dinosaur just like paper manuals, big box art, and old school expansions packs. Everything is DLC. Like it or not DLC is king of games. Fortnight anyone? $$$$$$$

OOTP could not only have annual DLC rosters, but that is where you would get the other types of play. Base game. PerfectTeam updates, Historical DLC, Stadium DLC, fictional, different assets etc..... The amount of money gamers spend on artwork assets in games is astronomical. And most is useless in terms of game play aka different color shirts. And they buy it all day every day.

People now spend money in OOTP cause of Perfect Team. The time to go to a DLC move is now!!! The possibilities are endless. DLC of all price points. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


Oh I'm in love with both Football Manager and Motorsport Manager. But OOTP shouldn't only be looking at sports titles for influence. I highly recommend Star Trader Frontiers. They have an excellent character and trait system in place.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

It's all good! We really value constructive criticism. Sometimes it's a bit hard to take (like being compared to SI & Football Manager, who have 10 times as many employees as we do), but I think we do a decent job listening to our customers and try to make as many happy as possible

I might appear "too harsh" in my comments often and I 100% throw around comparisons to Motorsport Manager and Football Manager in terms of sports management sims.

I still think the devs are great, mad respect. And sometimes having a harsh comment from a long time fan is a good thing. It just shows how much passion your product creates in people. If not they would be harsh and then never hear from them again.

And it is unfair and it does suck to be compared to the big gorilla in the yard. But honestly it is also a good thing. If players didn't think OOTPb had merit or heart then it actually wouldn't even be getting the comparisons. In some ways its a badge of honor, to be compared to the big gorilla, as some games aren't worthy and they don't even get sized up against SI FM/MM of the world.

Imagine how much it would suck not to be compared to the king of the yard? Being compared at least means you are in the hunt. And you never know when it's time for a new king.

[Westheim]

Oh, now I understand. May I point you to the Paradox store? There you can have your games that release stripped down to the bare bones before fleecing you for hundreds of bucks.

Dear OOTPD. The game is fine as it is. Before you take that post above from this thread, please take nothing from this thread.

Regards.

A utimately satisfied (though he'd like to win more often) customer.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

No my solution is to bring the game to the next level in terms of video game experience, and that might mean trimming some of that dead weight. I understand a ton of OOTPb fans aren't gamers or gaming fans in general. And at one time I am sure that was a huge positive in making the series successful. But in modern times I'm of the viewpoint that it is now holding OOTPb back from even greater success in the video game market place.

I just think OOTP should be all about GM mode!!! That mode would appeal to the most gamers hence it would be the popular and move units. And allow content creators to entertain moving more units. GM mode is where the meat is at!

...

Let me just say I respectfully disagree

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Let me just say I respectfully disagree

That's cool, I just think GM mode can be the best part of OOTPb, I could be wrong. But if I had to bet on something that wasn't in the "mobile gaming" spectrum I would wager on GM mode still.

If you don't see the game going deep into GM mode is there at least some kind of vision/scope/future info you can drop on us?

If we know GM mode isn't in the future plans then as fans we won't be complaining about it all the time or wanting GM mode to get better. Then we won't be disappointed when GM mode isn't making leaps and bounds each version update.

[Pendragon]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

Yeah pants over say a fully fleshed out GM mode lol.
...

I think ootpb could use some dead weight cut. Fictional, historical, online play... Sorry but it's dead weight.

No one in this thread has advocated for pants over GM mode. This thread concerns one aspect of the game, not the entire thing. A 3D artist/dev working on 3D does not take away from development of other portions of the game at all (as Syd succinctly explained a few posts ago).

Your "dead weight" is my game. I only play fictional and historical, with a blend of GM and 3D play (I play out a certain number of games and sim a certain number). I currently have about 15 saves running--all of them are historical or fictional.

Historical, fictional, and 3D are specifically why I bought OOTP. I did so with the understanding that the 3D is representative, not arcade.

The strength of OOTP is that it does so many things well for its playerbase. It allows a variety of playstyles within the scope of its intended audience.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Man, I didn't even know that setting was there, oh my God. I have set it to "Slightly Fast" now and it looks great in my opinion. I think I'll turn this into the new default speed for new installations.

Seriously... this just made me spit out coffee.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Westheim

Yeah, I was gonna say - wait, what??



The solution to "wonky 3D" according to you is to axe everything that sets the game apart from every other *annual roster upgrade* game?? I think step one should be that instead you should cut out the Lysol........

On a serious note; if you want a semi-pretty game with no customization options, no historical play etc. you should check out Football Manager, might be right up your alley. Don't soil this game like that.

That's *extremely* unkind to FM. FM has an incredibly deep strategy end to it and there are also a crap ton of customization options. No, there's no historical, because a historical soccer game would be a massive endeavor unto itself, but you can add and remove all sorts of leagues and there are even mods that allow you to manage all the way down into the deep amateur leagues in the promotion/relegation system (I watched a guy's YT this year of him starting with a team in I think it was the 11th level and scratch his way all the way to the top).

It's absolutely not OOTP because OOTP has a different target and is about a completely different sport.

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

That's cool, I just think GM mode can be the best part of OOTPb, I could be wrong. But if I had to bet on something that wasn't in the "mobile gaming" spectrum I would wager on GM mode still.

If you don't see the game going deep into GM mode is there at least some kind of vision/scope/future info you can drop on us?

If we know GM mode isn't in the future plans then as fans we won't be complaining about it all the time or wanting GM mode to get better. Then we won't be disappointed when GM mode isn't making leaps and bounds each version update.

I don't think Markus was necessarily objecting to the GM mode stuff, but the DLC mode.

We care about improving both the hard-core GM mode part of the game and the 3D improvements, and certainly take all comments and notes to mind. As we've said, we still have a few more improvements planned for this year, and certainly when we sit down and plan for OOTP22 and the future, we'll take all the comments and concerns to mind. But it's for sure in our plans to continue making improvements to both the 3D and to GM mode (and to other features too, obviously).

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

I have set it to "Slightly Fast" now and it looks great in my opinion. I think I'll turn this into the new default speed for new installations.

It's so much better
But not perfect
But so much better

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Pendragon

No one in this thread has advocated for pants over GM mode. This thread concerns one aspect of the game, not the entire thing. A 3D artist/dev working on 3D does not take away from development of other portions of the game at all (as Syd succinctly explained a few posts ago).

Your "dead weight" is my game. I only play fictional and historical, with a blend of GM and 3D play (I play out a certain number of games and sim a certain number). I currently have about 15 saves running--all of them are historical or fictional.

Historical, fictional, and 3D are specifically why I bought OOTP. I did so with the understanding that the 3D is representative, not arcade.

The strength of OOTP is that it does so many things well for its playerbase. It allows a variety of playstyles within the scope of its intended audience.

Yeah, honestly if OOTP cut historical and fictional, which it's absolutely not about to do, that would be the point at which *I* stopped purchasing new versons.

I feel like it may be best to think of OOTP as more of a toy than a game: a thing you can use to create your own cool (baseball) worlds and, if you give yourself enough constraints, provide as much of a challenge as you allow it.

Could the AI be better? Absolutely. IMO the biggest issue with the AI is that I don't think it has a full-fledged agenda the way human GMs do: outside of "Win Now" and "Rebuild" and the specific little owner goals it gives itself, I just don't see any sign that Team A ever think "okay, I'm going to undergo a 5 year plan to win with speed and defense" or "I'm the Yankees and I'm just going to go crazy in the FA market because even if I don't get everyone I'll drive up the prices of guys and that will benefit me in the end".

But again, and I'm going to keep repeating this until it stops being ignored, you can't just take people off of one project and put them on another and expect that to actually improve things. I understand this may seem counter-intuitive but it's a very well-known and well-tread idea in software project management that goes back to the 1970s:

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/The_Mythical_Man-Month

In order to develop in an environment, you have to understand what the environment does top to bottom. That takes time. For something as complex as OOTP, it takes a lot of time. The project I'm working in is probably less complicated than OOTP and whenever we move to a different aspect of it, it takes our team a good month to month and a half to understand what's going on, and the basic structure of everything is still the same (a web-based UI powered by Angular, a middle tier using .NET's WebAPI technology, and a backend that's straight up SQL). I'd be very surprised if the graphics team isn't using a completely different language to code (almost certainly C++) than the guys who work on the game engine and the AI (probably C# or Java since those languages are *far* easier to code in when you don't have to worry about memory allocation).

In the long term, sure, moving people around will help the bigger department. After several months. During which time, if your company is expanding, it's just as easy and probably far better for your efficiency to just hire new devs into the spots you want to fill.

[torpidbeaver]

Agree with many who say that GM mode needs more attention, and preferably soon.

But as far as small improvements to the PbP & 3D mode –*is there any way for the PbP to announce when a 4-star or better defensive play has happened? You can sometimes guess when the PbP gets excited, but there's no way to know for sure.

Maybe some sort of graphical flourish, if you don't want to be so obvious as to have the PbP handle it?

Also: how about a way to re-read the last play's PbP? For instance, there was just some pick-off play that didn't initially work, according to the PbP. On-screen, it played out like a catcher attempting to throw out a runner (there was no pick-off, at first). I'm assuming the pick-off play went straight in to a pitch, and the runner attempted to steal on that pitch.

Whatever happened, it was an odd series, but in the game log, all that's there is a CS.

[eldur00]

Originally Posted by torpidbeaver

Agree with many who say that GM mode needs more attention, and preferably soon.

But as far as small improvements to the PbP & 3D mode –*is there any way for the PbP to announce when a 4-star or better defensive play has happened? You can sometimes guess when the PbP gets excited, but there's no way to know for sure.

Maybe some sort of graphical flourish, if you don't want to be so obvious as to have the PbP handle it?

Also: how about a way to re-read the last play's PbP? For instance, there was just some pick-off play that didn't initially work, according to the PbP. On-screen, it played out like a catcher attempting to throw out a runner (there was no pick-off, at first). I'm assuming the pick-off play went straight in to a pitch, and the runner attempted to steal on that pitch.

Whatever happened, it was an odd series, but in the game log, all that's there is a CS.

The PbP does have text to announce a great play was made. It comes along the lines of "An average fielder does not make this play".

[treymancini]

I would like to add to the chorus of voices asking for GM mode improvements.

International Amateurs need work the most, they are kinda rough right now, you always give the best player 5m, when in real life very few get max slot. Plus you can't trade slots, and Discoveries don't count against your slots.


First-year draft is okay, but could use a little tweaking on the financial side of things. Nearly every player goes underslot, and you don't have the realistic pool management experience.


This is a very simple suggestion, but can we please, please have team manager histories? I want to see all the GMs and Managers that teams in my fictional leagues have had. It makes observing fictional/historical leagues more fun.

Coaching is still a little underwhelming. There are often legendary scouts and trainers just sitting around in the free agent pool that the AI will never sign. It's also kind of hard to tell how good a coach is. The two suggestions I would make are this:

Display coaching relationships and development influence on their front page.

Allow scrolling through coaches with arrow keys, like players.

[BirdWatcher]

So let me admit that even though I'm still relatively new to this game (started with 18), I am probably one of those die-hard OOTP supporters that people like to refer to as fan-boys. (But really, I'm 55 years old and I haven't been any kind of boy in a very long time and barely even know what the term is supposed to connote.) I freaking love this game, quirks and all.

Anyway, when I read about OOTP needing to cut dead weight like, (I almost can't even type this, I'm trembling so at the thought), fictional play- even though I know it ain't gonna happen- I nearly start to hyperventilate.
C'mon, man, you trying to give an old guy a heart attack?

[Karl Pagel Blues]

I mentioned in another thread that in my opinion the game has not progressed from a GM player perspective for the past 3-4 years.

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...12#post4650512

This week, I uninstalled the game. After having bought every version since OOTP12, I'm not planning on buying 22.

Maybe the developers have simply taken the GM aspect of OOTP as far as they can. While there are a large number of things that ideally need to be taken to the next level, Markus and the Team may need to focus available resources on other areas of the game.

That's fine. It's been a great ride with countless hours spent on the game. But I've reached a point now where the current functionality that the game provides me as a GM player is too predictable.

I have no other games. This was the only one for me. Time to find a new hobby.

Thank you, RD. Fantastic summary of the State of the Game.

I have been on board since OOTP12.

As a GM player, the OOTP world has become completely static. Sure, the names, ratings and stats change. But the overall game experience has been 99.9% the same the past 3-4 versions. There has been almost no progression with regard to GM interaction with the owner, players, coaches, media, fans.

Markus and the team have created a one-of-a-kind experience. Which is why I have bought every version since 12. The hope that the next version would again surpass the previous one with new features, improvements and surprises was rewarded year in and year out.

Until it no longer was. I first noticed that from the GM perspective, the game had gone into an extended stall about 3 versions ago.

There are a lot of areas where the game has stopped evolving for me as a GM player. Coaching, scouting, finances, player personality traits and the aforementioned inability to interact with the various components of the game.

Will the OOTP team address these issues and make meaningful improvements? Or have we already reached the high point of this wonderful creation? I don't know. All I do know is that come next year, for the first time since version 12, I will do the previously unthinkable and wait to see what "new" features have been added to OOTP22 before automatically sending in my order.