Starters in the pen. Again.

[diamond3017]

Originally Posted by halfbutt

Of course it happens in real baseball. Nobody is questioning that. I myself have two starters (including Patrick Corbin) as long relievers in my pen.

What doesn't happen in real baseball is five aces like Blyleven, Sale, Giolito, Wainwright, and Mussina coming out of the pen for a full season.

You've mentioned "aces" a couple times – you have to think about some of these guys' ratings "relative to the league". Moving Sale or Giolito to the bullpen in a higher-level PT league is like moving John Gant or Vince Velazquez to the bullpen IRL.

[diamond3017]

This thread got me thinking about reliever stamina. It's easy to tell how a pitcher's stuff will change when he is a reliever, because his stuff rating changes when his position changes to RP/CL. But what about stamina?

When used out of the bullpen, how many pitches can a pitcher with 100 stamina throw compared to a pitcher with 60 stamina? How severe is the difference between those pitchers, and a pitcher with 15 stamina? And what about recovery time?

[halfbutt]

Originally Posted by diamond3017

You've mentioned "aces" a couple times – you have to think about some of these guys' ratings "relative to the league". Moving Sale or Giolito to the bullpen in a higher-level PT league is like moving John Gant or Vince Velazquez to the bullpen IRL.

Yeah, that's a fair point. Again, I don't really have a problem with that. I just think there ought to be a limit to how many starters you can have coming out of the pen.

If there were more viable top end reliever/closer cards, do you think this would still be the meta?

[justpatrick]

Originally Posted by diamond3017

You've mentioned "aces" a couple times – you have to think about some of these guys' ratings "relative to the league". Moving Sale or Giolito to the bullpen in a higher-level PT league is like moving John Gant or Vince Velazquez to the bullpen IRL.

That´s it exactly. In this game, where nearly every player is an all star in real life, those guys just aren´t aces on top clubs.

[mkjhartmann]

This is a "fantasy" game. The rules are defined by the developer/vendor. I just don't understand the whining. It's meant to be fun and creative. If you want to recreate the past, there is the main program, it will do it super well. So please, stop complaining about all this stuff, and I hope Markus just keeps building a fun "fantasy" world.

[halfbutt]

[QUOTE=mkjhartmann;4645105]This is a "fantasy" game. The rules are defined by the developer/vendor. I just don't understand the whining. It's meant to be fun and creative. If you want to recreate the past, there is the main program, it will do it super well. So please, stop complaining about all this stuff, and I hope Markus just keeps building a fun "fantasy" world.

I'm sorry that you take sharing of opinions and discussion of the current meta as complaining. This is a forum for discussion of the game. You don't have to participate in this thread if you don't find it fun or creative.

[USF]

I don't see this as a problem. As a Jays fan during the championships in the early 90s, many times a SP was asked to pitch out of the pen. When you have pitching depth that is what happens in MLB too. The manager fields his best team to win. That includes playing corner OF or 1B or DH.

[JudP]

I think you are very astute with this. THis is so much NOT like baseball.

[JudP]

It may be a game, but the fun of winning is the strategy of building a team and not having 26 all stars from the start. Maybe OOTP should have two Perfect Games.... one for people that want to jusy buy 26 all stars and one for people that want to work to improve their teams in increments.

[Marleigh]

Originally Posted by halfbutt

Yeah, that's a fair point. Again, I don't really have a problem with that. I just think there ought to be a limit to how many starters you can have coming out of the pen.

If there were more viable top end reliever/closer cards, do you think this would still be the meta?

if I have a pre 1930 theme team what would i do with the bullpen if i could only have a few guys in it because of the complete lack of relievers?

even my 70s them team is very thin on actual relievers (and the best are way out of my price range)

They can't magic up a large amount of top end relievers due to the lack of them in the history of baseball

[Marleigh]

Originally Posted by JudP

It may be a game, but the fun of winning is the strategy of building a team and not having 26 all stars from the start. Maybe OOTP should have two Perfect Games.... one for people that want to jusy buy 26 all stars and one for people that want to work to improve their teams in increments.

that already exists, the people who want to build all star teams are in gold/diamond/perfect the others are in lower tiers

[KikiVincent]

I figure they are my pitchers, they exisit in a non-democratic state (my computer) and I will use any player any way I see fit, lol, within limits. There is no players union in PT. Put your pitchers where they will be effective for you. End of.

[KikiVincent]

Originally Posted by mkjhartmann

This is a "fantasy" game. The rules are defined by the developer/vendor. I just don't understand the whining. It's meant to be fun and creative. If you want to recreate the past, there is the main program, it will do it super well. So please, stop complaining about all this stuff, and I hope Markus just keeps building a fun "fantasy" world.

I agree. This is the most fun Ive ever had with OOTP.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by DonMattingly

Hoyt Wilhelm is in the HOF.

OK, there you go. That's the only one.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by diamond3017

This thread got me thinking about reliever stamina. It's easy to tell how a pitcher's stuff will change when he is a reliever, because his stuff rating changes when his position changes to RP/CL. But what about stamina?

When used out of the bullpen, how many pitches can a pitcher with 100 stamina throw compared to a pitcher with 60 stamina? How severe is the difference between those pitchers, and a pitcher with 15 stamina? And what about recovery time?

If you're using a 100-based scale, IIRC a low rated reliever can still throw around 90 pitches as a starter (in the modern context at least). That being said, the biggest thing to look out for with relief pitchers isn't so much their stamina as it is the number of pitches that they throw. *Occasionally* you can get away with a guy with two outstanding pitches as a starter but generally speaking if the guy doesn't throw at least 3 pitches you should expect them to suck their second time through the order (and I'd imagine in PT this effect is especially pronounced because all of the hitters you face above a certain level are high quality).

[diamond3017]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

If you're using a 100-based scale, IIRC a low rated reliever can still throw around 90 pitches as a starter (in the modern context at least). That being said, the biggest thing to look out for with relief pitchers isn't so much their stamina as it is the number of pitches that they throw. *Occasionally* you can get away with a guy with two outstanding pitches as a starter but generally speaking if the guy doesn't throw at least 3 pitches you should expect them to suck their second time through the order (and I'd imagine in PT this effect is especially pronounced because all of the hitters you face above a certain level are high quality).

There's also a cutoff at 25 stamina. If a pitcher is below that, then the AI will never use him as a starter (as long as there are enough pitchers on the roster with 25+ stamina), and his stuff is going to be nerfed if you try to use him as a starter, in my experience.

As an aside, I think some relievers like Josh Hader arbitrarily have stamina ratings below 20 because the game doesn't "want" them to be starters. Realistically he could have 40-50 stamina, but if his stamina is above 25, then the game would recognize his role as starter, which means the AI might try to use him that way.

edit: ratings out of 100

[halfbutt]

Originally Posted by Marleigh

if I have a pre 1930 theme team what would i do with the bullpen if i could only have a few guys in it because of the complete lack of relievers?

even my 70s them team is very thin on actual relievers (and the best are way out of my price range)

They can't magic up a large amount of top end relievers due to the lack of them in the history of baseball

I see your plight. I mean, back then if you started the game, you were gonna wear it. Even in the 70's, number of complete games was a stat every pitcher had displayed on the tv.

It will be interesting to see how the game moves forward from here, what with openers and starters only really expected to go five.

[AdmiralTrey]

Originally Posted by halfbutt

Of course it happens in real baseball. Nobody is questioning that. I myself have two starters (including Patrick Corbin) as long relievers in my pen.

What doesn't happen in real baseball is five aces like Blyleven, Sale, Giolito, Wainwright, and Mussina coming out of the pen for a full season.

You're right about that for sure, but baseball also doesn't see 9 man lineups with 9 Hall of Fame hitters, and that happens often in PT. I don't think we can expect realism when you can field an outfield of Ichiro, Willie Mays, and Barry Bonds.