Pedro=Coward - Page 3

CommishJoe · 10-11-2003, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by matskralc
Pedro's a ****ing prick

Well, we agree on something

JML · 10-11-2003, 10:13 PM

Did you guys hear that Arnold Schwarzenegger is going to be the governer of California!?!? Is that crazy or what!?

matskralc · 10-11-2003, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CommishJoe
Well, we agree on something

Yeah, I'm certainly no Pedro fanboy. I just don't think this is his fault, and I don't blame him for this at all.

You want to talk about hitting Garcia or pointing at heads? Then I think I may be able to go along with you.

H I Mcdonough · 10-11-2003, 10:20 PM

Cajones.

CommishJoe · 10-11-2003, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by H I Mcdonough
Cajones.

*ding*

What are something Ramirez and Martinez don't have?

<Trebek>

That's correct, please pick a category.

</Trebek>

JerseyPride · 10-11-2003, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sixto
Ramirez would have just gestured and made an ass out of himself if Clemens hadn't have said "**** you, **** you."

But Glanville is clutch.

The whole issue was started because Manny is a huge cry baby. Pedro was getting rocked, and threw at Garcia. No other way to put it. He threw it head high, inches behind him. If Clemens wanted to hit Manny he easily could of. Ask Piazza, he’ll tell you all about it. Manny went crazy over a pitch that wasn’t even that close in. If you were watching the game Manny made the first gesture. Can’t remember what was said, but I know the FU word was used more then once. Manny made the first gesture, not Clemens.

Pedro is a huge coward. Pushing a 70 year old COACH is ridiculous. Pedro provoked it all by throwing at a Yankee, and then saying something to Zimm, who then came charging after Pedro. Zimm is 70 years old Pedro easily could of walked away.
But no, that would of been to classy for something like Pedro to do.

Whose to blame for all of this? Pedro and Manny. If Pedro doesn't throw at Garcia, Clemens isn't forced to react. If Manny doesn't whine like a girl, and freak out like a baby then Zimmerman is never on the field.

AngelinOF · 10-11-2003, 11:36 PM

Zimmer had no business charging at him in the first place, he may be 150 years old but he still probably comes close to outweighing Pedro 2 to 1 and someone charging at me at nearly twice my weigh is going to get a similar reaction from me regardless of age/gender, I'm just going to step out of their way, I'm certainly not going to let them charge into me and "hope" they just bounce off.

TheRockCT · 10-12-2003, 12:08 AM

I find alot of the Yankee/Red Sox bias really kind of lame. I will stand by my opinion that 4 people should've been tossed from the game and (subsequently) fined.

Pedro Martinez DID incite the Yankee bench by threatening to potentially throw a beanball at a player's head, regardless of what he was attempting to convey, most Yankees took it that way. Pedro IS guilty of tossing a man to the ground. To me, his age is almost irrelevant as you will see in a moment. Pedro physically threw a member of the other team to the ground.

Manny Ramirez WAS a total a-hole by turning nothing into something and try to protect & bolster his ego. If he had been the "bigger man" and kept his cool, none of the events following would have even occured.

Roger Clemens PROBABLY threw a high pitch to at least SEE how much he could get away with in regards to payback without getting tossed. I don't necessarily hold him truly accountable for much at all, but he WAS the opposing pitcher and I feel he should've been removed just to basically give the entire game a chance at a fresh start.

Don Zimmer. Listen Yankee fans or elderly defenders, I don't care what excuses you guys are making for him, if he's intelligent enough and mentally/physically able to be around a baseball clubhouse and be a major league baseball coach, he has no business going up to Pedro Martinez for anything. If he wants to shout at him from the dugout, wonderful - if he wants to write him a nasty e-mail, let him - but he was walking up to Pedro with some sort of hostility. Zimmer may have a plate in his head, and I sympathize that he had to go through so much after being hit with a baseball, but just like Pedro had other choices than to throw Zimmer down, Zimmer himself had other ways of expressing his displeasure of Martinez than by trotting up to him with the intent that was pretty visible as being hostile.

And then if the game had continued with more beaning or heated words, if I had been in charge they would have had to call the game because a team wouldn't have had a way to play 9 players. It's ridiculous. I read Joe's comments about not having the game decided by umpires, well, I must argue I would like to see a game not decided by children and stupidity. The umpires are actually there to make judgment calls and maintain order, players (& managers) acting like they're 5 should have no right to "shape up." They're playing a priviledged game of baseball, they are in the playoffs, grow up or go play in the minors. I don't care how good you are, maintaining the tradition of "protecting the players" is incredibly stupid.

And I hear that people say that this kind of even doesn't "stain" the playoffs for you, well I feel the same - I'll probably remember Ivan Rodriguez making the tag on J.T. Snow, or how the Sox won 3 straight to fend off the A's, or seeing Kerry Wood pretty much dominate the Braves, or (of course) Doug Glanville.

But it is the casual fan and the media to worry about. Hardcore baseball fans may be able to remember other things, but the casual fans and the way the media perpetrates things is going to make its mark on this year's playoffs. The only thing I can see drowning this out in history is for one of the two "destiny" teams to pull it out somehow, and even then, if the Red Sox do it, it'll be a whole lot harder to get past the media discussing potential "dirty" playing to get there.

I wish people had been able to take note of a good pitching performance outside of the fiasco from Clemens, or Damon's return to the lineup and the way he interacted with his kids in that footage they showed. I wish that people would discuss some blown opportunities the Red Sox had, or Jeter's blast over the Monster, but I don't think it's going to really happen.

And all of that's a shame.

Carlton · 10-12-2003, 12:24 AM

ok, of ALL the Yankees, why would Pedro throw at an easy out like Karim Garcia?

I can't see the reasoning of Pedro intentionally throwing at him...and think it was a slip more than anything, Pedro didn't have his best stuff tonight, I mean he hardly threw his fastball and I have to agree with the announcers on that...if Pedro is throwing NOTHING but breaking balls, something makes you think he was having troubles on the mound.

kingfc22 · 10-12-2003, 03:13 AM

Had to leave as soon as this happened so I haven't been able to post about this. Zimmer clearly went after Pedro and that dumbass McCarver needs a new pair of eyes because he only sees things one way, his way.

Manny is stupid for turning the situation into an incident because that ball was nowhere close to him.

Tomorrow should be fun once somebody gets hit by Wells in the 1st inning.

kingfc22 · 10-12-2003, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAlias
We all know who started this. Pedro. Hitting Garcia and nearly taking his head off.

One problem. The ball hit the bat. If you watch the replay you will see the movement of the bat is in reaction to the ball hitting it because it goes straight down. If the ball did not hit the bat, then it would still have been pointing upwards.

ThisGuy666 · 10-12-2003, 03:19 AM

You can really tell how many people did not actually watch the game by the lack of mention of Garcia's dirty slide, since it wasn't included in highlight packs or replayed as extensively as Pedro's beanball or "take-out" of Zimmer (for what it's worth, I agree with LGO on that issue).

kingfc22 · 10-12-2003, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ThisGuy666
You can really tell how many people did not actually watch the game by the lack of mention of Garcia's dirty slide, since it wasn't included in highlight packs or replayed as extensively as Pedro's beanball or "take-out" of Zimmer (for what it's worth, I agree with LGO on that issue).

He not only went in hard (which is totally legal) but he kicked his leg out to hit Walker and then on the way back to the dugout he started talking crap to all the BoSox players. And what was up with Posada?

Highlander · 10-12-2003, 09:25 AM

There were numerous bad REACTIONS by both sides in this game. However, the ACTIONS that instigated everything were by Pedro and Manny. No one did anything to provoke Pedro throwing at Garcia (there was not one other pitch by Pedro in that game even close to as bad as that one.....it was no "slip", and he did say to the Yankee bench "I'll hit you right here" while pointing to his head). There was no reason for Manny's response to that pitch (he did make the first motion and start the yelling....he was saying "Don't be F'ing around" among other things).

AnotherAlias · 10-12-2003, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kingfc22
One problem. The ball hit the bat. If you watch the replay you will see the movement of the bat is in reaction to the ball hitting it because it goes straight down. If the ball did not hit the bat, then it would still have been pointing upwards.

The ball hit the bat after it nicked Garcia's shoulder. The replay clearly shows this. You must have missed it.

CommishJoe · 10-12-2003, 11:23 AM

Story about the groundskeeper vs Nelson..

http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/3711.htm

If the Post is this critical, you can imagine how bad it really is. I'll be watching for more information on this.

cooper_gd · 10-13-2003, 08:15 AM

I thought Zimmer was a corpse that Torre and the Boss propped up on the bench as a good luck charm. When I saw him move - WOW - he's alive! It would have been much better if Martinez would have just let Zim smack on him while just standing there picking his nose or something.

Maybe the Cubs will win to make the series to bring on the apocalypse before either of the freaking BoSox or Yanks make it.

dougaiton · 10-13-2003, 08:29 AM

Somebody needs to take these guys out for dinner. Were their wives in the stadium to keep them calm?

fat dude · 10-13-2003, 10:37 AM

Quote:

TotalEnd98:
...seriously, what the **** are you talking about?

Ummm, you might want to apologize to your fellow board member, no?

I mean, since you were clearly wrong and all.

OldGiants · 10-13-2003, 11:34 AM

My local paper carried a great column by Adrian Wojnarowski of the Bergen Record about this. I tried to find a link to it, but nothing recent came up. Here's what I have time to type:

Pedro Marinez performed the part of the punk perfectly, throwing the ball at the head of Karim Garcia, warinng Jorge Posada of the the danger awaiting him in the batter's box and ultimately winning one scintillating scrap on Saturday, slipping a Don Zimmer left hook and throwing the old man to the ground.

It is one thing to stand on New England soil, declare absolutely no fear of the Evil Empire and be a tough tenacious, terror to the Yankees--and another to be a colossal coward, never needing to to live the consequences of his frightening fastball with his own trips to the batter's box.

MOst of all, Martinez is a fantastic failure in the face of the Yankees, losing his humanity, intending to injure, leaving little reason to dispute the difference between New York and Boston, between champions who find ways to win and losers who self-destruct.

He wasn't alone in disgrace... As long as the two most talented, most well-paid, most important players for the franchise are Martinez and Manny Ramirez, they'll be holding seances and performing exorcisms at Fenway Park for 185 years. Another Red Sox-Yankees classic, another chapter in Boston's losing saga.

There isn't a curse, just a complete absence of courage. With Marinez throwing at Garcia, with Ramirez marching to the mound, clutching a bat on a ridiculously pedestrian pitch by Clemens, the theme is never going to change for these Red Sox. They're too busy posing and preening ...to take the time to beat the Yankees when it matters the most.

Whne it counted, the cast of champions--Clemens, Jeter, Rivera--stayed cool and delivered.

It is no coincidence that the Red Sox lose these games and the Yankees win them. It is no accident.

Martinez picked a fight with the Yankees that he couldn't win. Again. Ramirez started to the mound with a bat in his hand, but swinging it, he struck out like a frightened fawn. Scared stiff. When the game was over, there was no accountabiltiy. Martinez wouldn't talk, neither would Ramirez.

[the column says Nelson and Garcia were stupid to attack the groundskeeper, then quotes Scott Sauerbeck:]

"It came up that it was a grounds crew guy. We all felt kind of bad. We wanted to help him. If we had known it was him, we would have jumped over and help him."

{Wojnarowski continues:]

They probably would have gotten pounded too. After all, when it comes to the Yankees, that's all the Red Sox have ever understood.

And maybe ever will.

EDITED for several egregious spelling errors--OG

10-12-2003, 12:08 AM	#48
TheRockCT All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: TN Posts: 1,083	I find alot of the Yankee/Red Sox bias really kind of lame. I will stand by my opinion that 4 people should've been tossed from the game and (subsequently) fined. Pedro Martinez DID incite the Yankee bench by threatening to potentially throw a beanball at a player's head, regardless of what he was attempting to convey, most Yankees took it that way. Pedro IS guilty of tossing a man to the ground. To me, his age is almost irrelevant as you will see in a moment. Pedro physically threw a member of the other team to the ground. Manny Ramirez WAS a total a-hole by turning nothing into something and try to protect & bolster his ego. If he had been the "bigger man" and kept his cool, none of the events following would have even occured. Roger Clemens PROBABLY threw a high pitch to at least SEE how much he could get away with in regards to payback without getting tossed. I don't necessarily hold him truly accountable for much at all, but he WAS the opposing pitcher and I feel he should've been removed just to basically give the entire game a chance at a fresh start. Don Zimmer. Listen Yankee fans or elderly defenders, I don't care what excuses you guys are making for him, if he's intelligent enough and mentally/physically able to be around a baseball clubhouse and be a major league baseball coach, he has no business going up to Pedro Martinez for anything. If he wants to shout at him from the dugout, wonderful - if he wants to write him a nasty e-mail, let him - but he was walking up to Pedro with some sort of hostility. Zimmer may have a plate in his head, and I sympathize that he had to go through so much after being hit with a baseball, but just like Pedro had other choices than to throw Zimmer down, Zimmer himself had other ways of expressing his displeasure of Martinez than by trotting up to him with the intent that was pretty visible as being hostile. And then if the game had continued with more beaning or heated words, if I had been in charge they would have had to call the game because a team wouldn't have had a way to play 9 players. It's ridiculous. I read Joe's comments about not having the game decided by umpires, well, I must argue I would like to see a game not decided by children and stupidity. The umpires are actually there to make judgment calls and maintain order, players (& managers) acting like they're 5 should have no right to "shape up." They're playing a priviledged game of baseball, they are in the playoffs, grow up or go play in the minors. I don't care how good you are, maintaining the tradition of "protecting the players" is incredibly stupid. And I hear that people say that this kind of even doesn't "stain" the playoffs for you, well I feel the same - I'll probably remember Ivan Rodriguez making the tag on J.T. Snow, or how the Sox won 3 straight to fend off the A's, or seeing Kerry Wood pretty much dominate the Braves, or (of course) Doug Glanville. But it is the casual fan and the media to worry about. Hardcore baseball fans may be able to remember other things, but the casual fans and the way the media perpetrates things is going to make its mark on this year's playoffs. The only thing I can see drowning this out in history is for one of the two "destiny" teams to pull it out somehow, and even then, if the Red Sox do it, it'll be a whole lot harder to get past the media discussing potential "dirty" playing to get there. I wish people had been able to take note of a good pitching performance outside of the fiasco from Clemens, or Damon's return to the lineup and the way he interacted with his kids in that footage they showed. I wish that people would discuss some blown opportunities the Red Sox had, or Jeter's blast over the Monster, but I don't think it's going to really happen. And all of that's a shame. __________________ GM, Vermont Emperor Penguins - POTD POTD Champions: 2011, 2012, 2013 GM, Monterrey Aztecs* - NABA NABA Champions: 2013 Last edited by TheRockCT; 10-12-2003 at 12:16 AM.*

10-12-2003, 12:24 AM	#49
Carlton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 3,765	ok, of ALL the Yankees, why would Pedro throw at an easy out like Karim Garcia? I can't see the reasoning of Pedro intentionally throwing at him...and think it was a slip more than anything, Pedro didn't have his best stuff tonight, I mean he hardly threw his fastball and I have to agree with the announcers on that...if Pedro is throwing NOTHING but breaking balls, something makes you think he was having troubles on the mound. __________________ "I am at that stage of my life where I keep myself out of arguments. I am 100% self sufficient spiritually, emotionally & financially. Even if you say 1+1=5, you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. Enjoy!"

10-12-2003, 03:13 AM	#50
kingfc22 All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Fremont, CA Posts: 651	Had to leave as soon as this happened so I haven't been able to post about this. Zimmer clearly went after Pedro and that dumbass McCarver needs a new pair of eyes because he only sees things one way, his way. Manny is stupid for turning the situation into an incident because that ball was nowhere close to him. Tomorrow should be fun once somebody gets hit by Wells in the 1st inning. __________________ GO GIANTS GO NINERS GO LAKERS GO BLUE CUBL - Red Earth Firebirds 2000 CL Central Champs NABL - Washington Senators now Buffalo Bandits

10-12-2003, 03:19 AM	#52
ThisGuy666 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Waterloo, ON Posts: 71	You can really tell how many people did not actually watch the game by the lack of mention of Garcia's dirty slide, since it wasn't included in highlight packs or replayed as extensively as Pedro's beanball or "take-out" of Zimmer (for what it's worth, I agree with LGO on that issue). __________________ - TG

10-12-2003, 09:25 AM	#54
Highlander All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 985	There were numerous bad REACTIONS by both sides in this game. However, the ACTIONS that instigated everything were by Pedro and Manny. No one did anything to provoke Pedro throwing at Garcia (there was not one other pitch by Pedro in that game even close to as bad as that one.....it was no "slip", and he did say to the Yankee bench "I'll hit you right here" while pointing to his head). There was no reason for Manny's response to that pitch (he did make the first motion and start the yelling....he was saying "Don't be F'ing around" among other things). __________________ "The baseball mania has run its course. It has no future as a professional endeavor." — Cincinnati Gazette editorial, 1879

10-11-2003, 10:13 PM	#42
JML Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The act or process of locating. Posts: 2,154	Did you guys hear that Arnold Schwarzenegger is going to be the governer of California!?!? Is that crazy or what!?

10-11-2003, 10:20 PM	#44
H I Mcdonough Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 291	Cajones.

10-11-2003, 11:36 PM	#47
AngelinOF All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,353	Zimmer had no business charging at him in the first place, he may be 150 years old but he still probably comes close to outweighing Pedro 2 to 1 and someone charging at me at nearly twice my weigh is going to get a similar reaction from me regardless of age/gender, I'm just going to step out of their way, I'm certainly not going to let them charge into me and "hope" they just bounce off.

10-12-2003, 11:23 AM	#56
CommishJoe Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 5,238	Story about the groundskeeper vs Nelson.. http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/3711.htm If the Post is this critical, you can imagine how bad it really is. I'll be watching for more information on this. __________________ Joe Success isn’t owned. It’s leased. And rent is due every day.

10-13-2003, 08:15 AM	#57
cooper_gd All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: PopBunker.net Posts: 1,011	I thought Zimmer was a corpse that Torre and the Boss propped up on the bench as a good luck charm. When I saw him move - WOW - he's alive! It would have been much better if Martinez would have just let Zim smack on him while just standing there picking his nose or something. Maybe the Cubs will win to make the series to bring on the apocalypse before either of the freaking BoSox or Yanks make it. __________________

10-13-2003, 08:29 AM	#58
dougaiton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Location: Posts: 3,414	Somebody needs to take these guys out for dinner. Were their wives in the stadium to keep them calm? __________________ tThis shower of clowns My park-adjusted, historically split Born in '69 league file! (also at Joe's wonderful site +BBSC)

10-13-2003, 11:34 AM	#60
OldGiants Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 211	My local paper carried a great column by Adrian Wojnarowski of the Bergen Record about this. I tried to find a link to it, but nothing recent came up. Here's what I have time to type: Pedro Marinez performed the part of the punk perfectly, throwing the ball at the head of Karim Garcia, warinng Jorge Posada of the the danger awaiting him in the batter's box and ultimately winning one scintillating scrap on Saturday, slipping a Don Zimmer left hook and throwing the old man to the ground. It is one thing to stand on New England soil, declare absolutely no fear of the Evil Empire and be a tough tenacious, terror to the Yankees--and another to be a colossal coward, never needing to to live the consequences of his frightening fastball with his own trips to the batter's box. MOst of all, Martinez is a fantastic failure in the face of the Yankees, losing his humanity, intending to injure, leaving little reason to dispute the difference between New York and Boston, between champions who find ways to win and losers who self-destruct. He wasn't alone in disgrace... As long as the two most talented, most well-paid, most important players for the franchise are Martinez and Manny Ramirez, they'll be holding seances and performing exorcisms at Fenway Park for 185 years. Another Red Sox-Yankees classic, another chapter in Boston's losing saga. There isn't a curse, just a complete absence of courage. With Marinez throwing at Garcia, with Ramirez marching to the mound, clutching a bat on a ridiculously pedestrian pitch by Clemens, the theme is never going to change for these Red Sox. They're too busy posing and preening ...to take the time to beat the Yankees when it matters the most. Whne it counted, the cast of champions--Clemens, Jeter, Rivera--stayed cool and delivered. It is no coincidence that the Red Sox lose these games and the Yankees win them. It is no accident. Martinez picked a fight with the Yankees that he couldn't win. Again. Ramirez started to the mound with a bat in his hand, but swinging it, he struck out like a frightened fawn. Scared stiff. When the game was over, there was no accountabiltiy. Martinez wouldn't talk, neither would Ramirez. [the column says Nelson and Garcia were stupid to attack the groundskeeper, then quotes Scott Sauerbeck:] "It came up that it was a grounds crew guy. We all felt kind of bad. We wanted to help him. If we had known it was him, we would have jumped over and help him." {Wojnarowski continues:] They probably would have gotten pounded too. After all, when it comes to the Yankees, that's all the Red Sox have ever understood. And maybe ever will. EDITED for several egregious spelling errors--OG Last edited by OldGiants; 10-13-2003 at 11:38 AM.