The Baseball Reference website

[David Watts]

Threads like this sure make the work day go by faster.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by ohiodevil

All you need to do is look at his posting history and notice that his tone is very combative and condescending when someone questions or disagrees with him and he likes to play the victim.

While he may be correct that BBREF may have some discrepancies, does it really take the joy out of playing the game if Juan Ortiz played in 19 games in 2015 but BBREF has him listed as playing 18? Unless he was at each of these games keeping the stats himself, will we really know which one is right?

I had forgotten that he was the one bashing all you roster guys in the roster issues thread.

[Benchmark]

Originally Posted by tward13

Asking again, so as to adjust my level of concern:

Are the BB-Ref errors in the DSL and VSL leagues or also in the MLB stats?

I do not use BR for MLB stats. I reviewed the minors only! AAA-VSL.

I assume he uses Retrosheet as his source since the number of players are the same. He probably clears it every year but I can't say for 100%. (Players seem to change)The problem arises when a game is cancelled or a game log is changed. He doesn't do quality control checks at the end of year to pick these issues up. So if they are cleared, then only the current season would be affected. Since Retrosheet only does MLB, the minor leagues are compiled daily and never changed again. so if a game was cancelled before finishing which happens often in the minors, the stats are never corrected.

This is where his different sources have different data. Hence the pile of incorrect data. So image every team in the minors doesn't complete a delayed game, then every players stats would be incorrect. One delayed game causes two teams, all players that played in that game to be cancelled. So you can see how it piles up fast.(18 to 20 players minimum per game cancelled) For the MLB, usually only 1 to 3 games change a year. So the numbers should be less minus official box score changes after the Gameday was created. If you are ever in doubt, check the game log and split stats PA and AB against the main player page PA and AB. This will pickup about 95%+. So to sum it up, I think you would be ok with the MLB stats if they are changed yearly. Someone from BR can confirm this since I am sure they have been notified of this thread. Hope this helps you out in deciding whether to use BR MLB Data.

[Benchmark]

Originally Posted by Michael Xavier

This post is so amusing. It is like watching a burglar injure him or herself during a home invasion, and then sue the homeowner for damages and mental suffering.

This post is exactly why I post it!


You have nothing to bring to this conversation except for for your childish comments. Can you actually join the adults in the conversation?


Another 15yo in mommies basement.

[Benchmark]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

You were being condescending. You know it, and we know it. And you're doing the same with this post.

How was I being condescending?


I asked a question to someone because they knew a lot about the BR servers.


If anyone thinks they are superior around here it's you. And your NOT!



Join the conversation about the topic or are you here just to insult people?

[Benchmark]

Originally Posted by DustyElbows

Benchmark has not proved that there are any errors in the BBRef data - just that there are differences between that data and data from other sources regarding the DSL only.

Your right! The difference is 3 sources on the same site have different stats. I guess it is not just site to site my friend. It's not the DSL only! Either. Maybe you should check out some of the issues because it ranges all through out the minors on cancelled games. Read my MLB question above and you might understand more.

[Benchmark]

Originally Posted by ohiodevil

All you need to do is look at his posting history and notice that his tone is very combative and condescending when someone questions or disagrees with him and he likes to play the victim.

While he may be correct that BBREF may have some discrepancies, does it really take the joy out of playing the game if Juan Ortiz played in 19 games in 2015 but BBREF has him listed as playing 18? Unless he was at each of these games keeping the stats himself, will we really know which one is right?

I will admit to being combative, it is in my nature and education.
But condescending, I don't think I'm superior to no one. I answer questions on this site because I know the answer and am very confident in my answer. Now if that is your condescending so be it!
I don't respond to answers on this site and make up crap just to get in arguments. I have better things to do with my time. Matter a fact I am way behind in my work debating you on this. As for me being a victim, no one has ever call me that. I was trying to be polite and obey forum rules and not get into dogfights with people like you. As you can see this thread is off topic and the mods are openly allowing us to debate my combative and condescending style as you call it. Maybe you and your OOTP boys should understand that I am not going away. This is how I speak or write and if you don't like it, that is your issue not mine. I have refrained from going dirty and thought I have been polite, even apologized in the original post if I was not correct. As you can see from past post I speak my mind but am truthful when I do it. Hope you can accept this or we will be butting heads in the future. As for the stats, in game, I am detailed oriented and want them to be exact. Matter of fact, I started my own database because playerID # had Nate Causey number 1. Mine has Art Allison number 1 and setup by MLB player appearance and then by minor league signing date with 25000 spots for MLB players. You may not be that detailed, but I am and I ask you to accept me as I accept your faults of not being that detailed.

[BirdWatcher]

Originally Posted by Benchmark

I do not use BR for MLB stats. I reviewed the minors only! AAA-VSL.

I assume he uses Retrosheet as his source since the number of players are the same. He probably clears it every year but I can't say for 100%. (Players seem to change)The problem arises when a game is cancelled or a game log is changed. He doesn't do quality control checks at the end of year to pick these issues up. So if they are cleared, then only the current season would be affected. Since Retrosheet only does MLB, the minor leagues are compiled daily and never changed again. so if a game was cancelled before finishing which happens often in the minors, the stats are never corrected.

This is where his different sources have different data. Hence the pile of incorrect data. So image every team in the minors doesn't complete a delayed game, then every players stats would be incorrect. One delayed game causes two teams, all players that played in that game to be cancelled. So you can see how it piles up fast.(18 to 20 players minimum per game cancelled) For the MLB, usually only 1 to 3 games change a year. So the numbers should be less minus official box score changes after the Gameday was created. If you are ever in doubt, check the game log and split stats PA and AB against the main player page PA and AB. This will pickup about 95%+. So to sum it up, I think you would be ok with the MLB stats if they are changed yearly. Someone from BR can confirm this since I am sure they have been notified of this thread. Hope this helps you out in deciding whether to use BR MLB Data.

See this- if only you would stick to this style/tone of communication, I think all would be fine. No defensiveness, no hints of paranoia/conspiracy theory thinking, no grandiosity, no name calling, no condescension- basically just the facts, as you see them. I don't think anyone here has a problem with that sort of thing. It doesn't mean everyone needs to accept your facts on face value. But I suspect that if you kept things in this vein you never would have received the response you did here.
NoOne says that people don't react well to smart. But I feel pretty confident that the types of people who are drawn to this game (OOTP, that is) are generally pretty smart. I wouldn't think the game would have that great an appeal for people who are lacking in intelligence. Now how smart is communicated, that is another thing entirely. Sometimes it doesn't matter how valid the message is, if the messenger is tone deaf it might not get through to the intended audience.
I would encourage you to just stick to the facts if you don't want to feel misunderstood (or from your perspective, bullied.) And be open to the reality that just because others don't simply accept your facts as the definitive reality that is okay. Intelligent people respectfully disagree all the time. These are distinguishing markers of true intelligence: being able to accept that there are valid perspectives other than your own, cultivating the humility that the knowledge of your own human limitations dictates, engaging in respectful and measured dialogue with those who disagree with you or at the least challenge your assertions or perceptions.
But it might be wise also to entertain the possibility that not everyone, even not everyone drawn to this rather esoteric hobby, is as driven as you seem to be in the pursuit of statistical data purity. After all, in the grand scheme this is still just a game (at its core)- and here I mean not just OOTP but baseball itself. Life and death does not hang in the balance. Let's not lose all perspective in our love and passion for this game and the statistics that help define it.

[Benchmark]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Threads like this sure make the work day go by faster.

I always like when you can add humor to a thread without attacking someone.


Hope you are liking the post today David!


I was expecting a popcorn emoji though.

[ohiodevil]

Originally Posted by Benchmark

Maybe you and your OOTP boys should understand that I am not going away..

Your entire post was good up to the line I quoted, which was completely unnecessary and is why people think you can be condescending and combative.

I do not work for OOTP or BBREF or any other stat site.....I have a full time job and a family, I just volunteer to work on the beta team and work on the rosters for the quickstart because I really like this game and want to make each version better than the last. And since I have been around since 2002, I try and help answer questions to new people that have them. That being said, there is not a group of "Hall of Famers" out to get you, it just seems like when someone disagrees with you, you end up with the snarky remarks, and that is where these threads get out of control.

That being said, good luck with your database. I know how much work goes into making one.

[Benchmark]

Originally Posted by Andy

I had forgotten that he was the one bashing all you roster guys in the roster issues thread.

Bashing? Just telling the truth.


But since my bashing made improvements to the game which you may not know about. Your welcome. Editing Draft export anyone?



Since me and Lukas are at peace I'll leave this topic alone.


I do always enjoy your opening rosters. They seem very though and I have complemented the roster team for that in the past. So it is not all negative.



We just have different opinions on when the players adding to the rosters stop.


I have come up with solutions and pass them along about a roster export spreadsheet online somewhere. Hope they advance and use it.

[grall1126]

It's all good guys, it's only baseball. We need this passion to review all the stealing of our technology by C****.

Great game

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Benchmark

How was I being condescending?


I asked a question to someone because they knew a lot about the BR servers.


If anyone thinks they are superior around here it's you. And your NOT!



Join the conversation about the topic or are you here just to insult people?

Let me get this straight. You asked BIG17EASY "How was I being condescending?" in your first sentence, and it doesn't take three sentences for you to put him down?

Originally Posted by Nwdcdude

You sound like you're fun at parties.

Originally Posted by haveband

You know what, I rarely respond to these kinds of posts but I cannot hold my tongue any longer.

back in 2014 thousands, literally thousands of draft players were created for 2014 and future drafts. After the 2014 we retired all the undrafted 2014 players we created and realized we wasted our time creating way too many players, same for 2015. Most those guys we retired no longer play ball of any sort, so creating them was purely time wasted. Same thing with 2016, we've created hundreds of guys that not only will never play ball in the majors or minors, but we created nothing more than minor league roster fodder. You apparently do not realize how much time it takes to do all this stuff. And if we're going to release post trade deadline rosters, the draft is a small part of it. It might be the only thing you're interested in, but we were updating the draft, 2016 July 2nd free agents, seberal hundred non-drafted free agents, all trades and ALL SIGNINGS since opening day that includes the minor leagues as well. If we'd just done nothing but the 2016 draft picks just to please you, what about the hundreds of minor league moves that happened, promotions, demotions, releases, etc. What's the point in a post trade deadline set that didn't include everything. Guys are right now using their time off during their summer breaks to work on updating minor league rosters for FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And you want to complain because all the great picks in rounds 35+ aren't in the game. Since I told Markus we'd do it this year, we'll release the post trade set this year. Next year, doubt it.

Originally Posted by ohiodevil

Wonder what that guy would have said when roster sets were unofficial creations made by guys on the forums...and the game came with fictional players....I won't go into any names, but I remember some big blowups surrounding a couple guys on here....fun times....

Originally Posted by The Yurpman

I suggest leaving. That will improve the game for all of us on these forums.

Originally Posted by BigRed75

And ironically, given what haveband posted, you pretty much ensured there won't be a 2017 post-deadline roster update. Some "future improvement."

Good job, dude.

Originally Posted by NoOne

bench, from cali? do some yoga breathign lessons or something

some of this stuff isn't professional, it's done be people willing to do it of their own volition, at least in some part. maybe coordinated a bit by ootp?

i'm not 100% sure, but at least some, if not most, are volunteers when it comes to certain dB stuff. a little appreciation of people's free work goes a long ways.

Originally Posted by ohiodevil

Your entire post was good up to the line I quoted, which was completely unnecessary and is why people think you can be condescending and combative.

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

You were being condescending. You know it, and we know it. And you're doing the same with this post.

Originally Posted by kq76

You're clearly into this topic, which is great (it's great to have hobbies we're passionate about; I'm into data too), but the tone of your posts clearly rub some people the wrong way.

It would be one thing if I were alone in my view that you can be very condescending towards other posters on this forum. That would be on me, and it would be my issue to deal with. When multiple posters are giving you similar feedback in multiple threads, it's more than likely that there's a kernel of truth to what we/they are saying.

I've seen you be incredibly helpful towards other posters on this forum, and it's obvious that you're highly intelligent and skilled. Why not put those attributes towards continuing to help make the game better, while simultaneously toning down on the condescension? You might find that your intelligence, ideas and skills are better received here, and that you are treated better. With your helpful input, the game gets better, other people don't feel belittled, and you don't get the kind of pushback that you're getting right now. Everybody wins.

[Benchmark]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

Let me get this straight. You asked BIG17EASY "How was I being condescending?" in your first sentence, and it doesn't take three sentences for you to put him down?

It would be one thing if I were alone in my view that you can be very condescending towards other posters on this forum. That would be on me, and it would be my issue to deal with. When multiple posters are giving you similar feedback in multiple threads, it's more than likely that there's a kernel of truth to what we/they are saying.

I've seen you be incredibly helpful towards other posters on this forum, and it's obvious that you're highly intelligent and skilled. Why not put those attributes towards continuing to help make the game better, while simultaneously toning down on the condescension? You might find that your intelligence, ideas and skills are better received here, and that you are treated better. With your helpful input, the game gets better, other people don't feel belittled, and you don't get the kind of pushback that you're getting right now. Everybody wins.

You can keep crying' about the same thing over and over or move on. that is how I speak and write if you don't like it, that is your problem. I'm not going to change. As you can see with others I can mellow my tone down, but you get what you give. You consider it condescending, I don't.Since it was only me and the doctor having the conversation and they were good questions by him, except when he started telling me about multiple servers and knowing a little more than the General Public would. Just because I believe I knew who I was talking to I asked the question. Judging by his silence on this thread since, I take it something I said hit on the button.

My history with Haveband(RIP) and Lukas are completely different from this conversation. I fight for things and people on this board and have never won a Mr. Nice Award and never plan too. Yes, I have fought with both about rosters and specifically the adding of people to rosters after the beginning of the season. I have also found solutions to problems and made improvements to this game. Most of that is done with Markus and Matt behind the scenes in Private Messages. I have only had one issue with Markus and Matt in the whole time talking to them and that was they did a Final Update a few years back and messed up the Roster Import/Export feature and planned not to do another update on the version. Luckily something else popped up in that update a couple months later and they did do and update and I was grateful. Lukas and I have spared many time before and will probably do it again in the future but we have had civil conversations on Private Messages that you don't see. I throw out ideas to improve the game and he looks at them and this is done behind the scene. If you worked for OOTP, yes I have probably have had issues somewhere in the past but that is to improve the game. Sometimes I call them out for things that are not right but in the end it improves the game itself. People can get frustrated with me because I don't let up, but that has nothing to do with you because you don't work for OOTP. So again you take things out of context and read past histories post and don't understand the end game of improving OOTP.

[BirdWatcher]

(Hmm. Okay, sorry. Clearly I have not figured out how to share a GIF here yet.)

And even with very clear help I fail. Ah well, good to keep me humble and keenly aware of my shortcomings where things technical are involved. Also best to just leave this mess alone from now on.)

[joefromchicago]

Remember when this thread was about Baseball Reference?

Anyway, here's an old thread where there are a bunch of links to sites and to other useful threads on these boards.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Remember when this thread was about Baseball Reference?

Anyway, here's an old thread where there are a bunch of links to sites and to other useful threads on these boards.

Awesome stuff Joe!

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by BirdWatcher

http://media.giphy.com/media/ycllbrN3Kx27e/giphy.gif

(Hmm. Okay, sorry. Clearly I have not figured out how to share a GIF here yet.)

Deleted. Turns out I have no idea how to share a GIF without using the URL. Sorry about that.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Benchmark

You can keep crying' about the same thing over and over or move on. that is how I speak and write if you don't like it, that is your problem. I'm not going to change.

Fair enough. Just don't cry when you get pushback. Can't have it both ways. We now return you to your regularly scheduled baseball-reference chat.

[actionjackson]

One of my favourite features about BB-Ref is the ability to look up games that you were at, or really cool games that you remember from TV or the radio, and check out things like who the starting pitchers were, what the lineups were, how the scoring happened, and on and on and on. I believe you can do this at Retrosheet as well, but I much prefer BB-Ref's interface/presentation. Matter of personal preference I guess.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/b...97705280.shtml

This is the first live game I ever went to in Toronto on May 28, 1977. It definitely was a pattern interrupt for my hockey obsessed mind. I was seven years old, and I went with uncle Peter and his family. Peter had picked up his love for baseball lying on the living room floor listening to Dodger games in the late 1940s and 1950s with his aunt on one of those huuuge wooden radios with the big knob in the middle. Imagine your first exposure to baseball coming as a little kid in Toronto via Red Barber and then Vin Scully. Is this heaven? No...It's Toronto.

The boxscore tells me that future Blue Jay bit player Tony Solaita batted third and played first base for the Halos that day. Joe Rudi, Bobby Bonds, and Don Baylor made up the meat of the order. The ridiculously underrated Bobby Grich hit eighth and played SS. Another future Blue Jay bit player, Willie Mays Aikens, pinch hit in the ninth inning for C Terry Humphrey, and made the final out on a popup to first, giving future Cy Young (1982 AL) winner Pete Vuckovich his third save of the year in relief of Jesse Jefferson who squared his record at 3-3 in a 6-4 win for the good guys.

Jefferson became a hero to me because he started the first game I ever went to. His career MLB numbers did not end up being great (39-81, 4.81 ERA), but I didn't care. He was the man that started this crazy obsession/love affair with the game that has lasted 40+ years and is still going strong. Also of note, Dave "La Lob" LaRoche pitched the final two innings for the visitors. Wayne Simpson had started the game for the bad guys. One other thing of note. These were the days when relief pitchers were men. The starters for both sides lasted a combined 9.2 IP. That meant the bullpens had to pick up the slack, and boy did they ever. Three relievers (Mickey Scott, LaRoche, and Vuckovich) combined to go 7.1 IP, allowing 2 H, and an unearned run, with 2 BB, and 5 K. Also, my first umpiring crew: HP: Ron Luciano, 1B: Ken Kaiser, 2B: Bill Haller, and 3B: Bill Kunkel. I don't remember them, but I'll bet it was entertaining.

The Blue Jays first pick in the 1976 expansion draft (and second overall behind Ruppert Jones, who was picked by the Mariners), Bob Bailor hit second and played SS. Another one of my favourites, Roy Howell hit third and played 3B. Our lone 1977 all-star Ron Fairly was the DH and cleanup hitter. Three years later, I would listen to Otto "The Swatto" Velez in stunned amazement as he went 4 for 9 in a doubleheader against Cleveland with 4 R, 4 HR, and 10 RBI. Not a bad two games work I'd say. But that's a story for another day. On this day, he would hit fifth and play right field. Doug Ault, the hero of the first game in Blue Jays' history (2 HR off the White Sox' Ken Brett in the snow on April 7, 1977) would hit seventh and play first base, while another personal fave Alan Ashby was the catcher and hit eighth.

I've regaled you enough for now, but I'm gonna continue with other games that I remember well. How about you? What are your personal favourite games, and what happened in them? Post the boxscore if you can find it so we can check it out too.