Competitive balance discussion

[bailey]

If F2P teams are getting crushed, it may motivate those owners to spend some $$. The company has no incentive to cater to F2P folks.

[mcdog512]

Tournaments sound very cool. I hope they update the UI to make it easy to organize your owned cards into these "sub teams" you build for tournaments. This would really add to the fun. I'd also want to know before the game launch what all the types of tournaments were. If it's announced on a weekly basis there would be a big rush on the AH for those type of players and that means people who aren't working have the pick of the litter. Better to let us plan and accumulate these "sub teams" for the different types of tournaments more slowly rather than a mad rush or buying every card imaginable in case there might be some tournament that could use them.

[Maddox]

Originally Posted by atabakin

More levels isn't the panacea, but at least it would continue to provide separation and lengthen the time it takes to reach equilibrium.

But that also means that teams could be stuck in leagues with whales longer than the current 3 weeks or so that it could happen now.


I am coming to the opinion that it is best to just write off the first few weeks next year. Just leave your default players in and let them stay in bronze. Let the whales advance to silver for week two and then start trying. You should stay a week behind the largest majority of whales that way.

[Meg4byt3]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

That's the wall that is the issue. I am competitive in diamond with two teams (one FTP), but I really don't want to be promoted to perfect because my middling teams will not ever be competitive there and I refuse to spend the $500 that it would take to be competitive. So now what? Losing interest quickly.

I'd like to make it known that My Armadillos, with modest investment (under $50 for card packs) won the Perfect League Series, as the wild card with zero perfect players and with defeating many teams more heavily invested in.

[stl jason]

Originally Posted by Maddox

But that also means that teams could be stuck in leagues with whales longer than the current 3 weeks or so that it could happen now.


I am coming to the opinion that it is best to just write off the first few weeks next year. Just leave your default players in and let them stay in bronze. Let the whales advance to silver for week two and then start trying. You should stay a week behind the largest majority of whales that way.

also will depend on whether or not they implement the rapid promotion idea where the stacked teams don't move from bronze to silver to gold, etc and jump up higher from the start to compete against like teams... only reason they didn't this version is it wasn't announced from the start so it got some push-back for being last minute.

[Radsmats]

Originally Posted by Maddox

I don't know how you get around teams starting at the bottom and working their way up. At worst it only takes them three weeks before they make it to diamond.

That is 3 weeks out of 52 (when the new version comes out). Some people are making it sound like it will happen every single week of season.

It would be pretty simple to weight rosters and start teams with say 20 x 80+ point players in silver & 20 x 90+ point players in gold.
And telling players it's only going to take three weeks or maybe a month before they can really enjoy the game the way it's meant to be played isn't very good. This is not a free download / FTP game. We all spent real money to buy the software (with the promise of PT mode if I recall correctly) and it's not unreasonable to expect it to work week 1. I'm a longtime OOTP player or I might have looked at PT and given it up as (yet another) FTP / $ to win con, of which there are many in the video game world today.
Put me in a league with a reasonably even playing field from the start and I'm a happy camper. I might even buy a few packs once I've played out the string with my free team. But start me in a league where I can't compete and it gets me off on the wrong foot as far as accepting the basic premise of the game.
Long term I think OOTP needs to address this. Unbalanced levels is a game design issue, whether in Perfect Team, Fortnight or the latest RPG.

[Radsmats]

Originally Posted by bailey

If F2P teams are getting crushed, it may motivate those owners to spend some $$. The company has no incentive to cater to F2P folks.

They do if they want me to buy OOTP20, 21, etc., etc.

[eldur00]

Originally Posted by Radsmats

It would be pretty simple to weight rosters and start teams with say 20 x 80+ point players in silver & 20 x 90+ point players in gold.
And telling players it's only going to take three weeks or maybe a month before they can really enjoy the game the way it's meant to be played isn't very good. This is not a free download / FTP game. We all spent real money to buy the software (with the promise of PT mode if I recall correctly) and it's not unreasonable to expect it to work week 1. I'm a longtime OOTP player or I might have looked at PT and given it up as (yet another) FTP / $ to win con, of which there are many in the video game world today.
Put me in a league with a reasonably even playing field from the start and I'm a happy camper. I might even buy a few packs once I've played out the string with my free team. But start me in a league where I can't compete and it gets me off on the wrong foot as far as accepting the basic premise of the game.
Long term I think OOTP needs to address this. Unbalanced levels is a game design issue, whether in Perfect Team, Fortnight or the latest RPG.

Ding Ding ! We have a winner !


I've been in Bronze since the beginning, have no intention to be competitive and I'm messing around within the rules, but people here are completely delusional to think things are all sorted out by now and it only takes 3 weeks to get everyone on the same playing field, within their league.



The whale that got promoted the first week of the season got replaced by another whale fresh out of entry league, and it's been going on since the start of the game mode and it has never stopped.

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by Radsmats

And telling players it's only going to take three weeks or maybe a month before they can really enjoy the game the way it's meant to be played isn't very good.

The old problem. People can only have "fun" when they are the ones stomping other teams. It is a weak disposition and a bad attitude, and I don't see why developers should cater to those that whine the loudest.

I bet if they would indeed fast-track whale teams to Gold level out of the entry pools, ten other guys would spring up and shout angry words about how the dang whales get preferential treatment over free-to-play teams.

Originally Posted by Radsmats

This is not a free download / FTP game. We all spent real money to buy the software (with the promise of PT mode if I recall correctly) and it's not unreasonable to expect it to work week 1.

You fall into the same logic trap as every other poster that has brought this up one way or another. Perfect Team *is* free. It does not cost you a single cent. It is an additional, wholly optional game mode. If you bought OOTP 19 in April, you were not charged again in October.

Originally Posted by matingly23

What am I not going to hear sunshine? That I spelled a username incorrectly?

All I hear is another sad, small person puffing out their chest over a lie.

By far the most sad person is the one hammering some 60-odd posts out of his keyboard about the same, simple, dumb, and ultimately meaningless Silver League playoff pairing. It is now Wednesday. How long are you going to cuss off about the one time you were so badly mutilated by the gruesome whale? Until you win the next championship?

See part 1 to this reply. People are only satisfied if they can do the stomping.

OOTPD should change PT in OOTP 20 in a way that you get 25 free gold packs every day, and all the teams in your league are AI-run (every human player gets their own league), only ever field iron players, and if the AI accidentally wins a game once or twice a year, the game is erased and replayed immediately. And you get 5,000 PP compensation for the emotional hardship you suffered.

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by eldur00

Ding Ding ! We have a winner !


I've been in Bronze since the beginning, have no intention to be competitive and I'm messing around within the rules, but people here are completely delusional to think things are all sorted out by now and it only takes 3 weeks to get everyone on the same playing field, within their league.



The whale that got promoted the first week of the season got replaced by another whale fresh out of entry league, and it's been going on since the start of the game mode and it has never stopped.

I do think seeding teams by overall strength coming out of the entry league makes sense. Still wouldn't stop a guy from buying a super team once he landed in Bronze.

[Radsmats]

Originally Posted by Westheim

The old problem. People can only have "fun" when they are the ones stomping other teams. It is a weak disposition and a bad attitude, and I don't see why developers should cater to those that whine the loudest.

If you stopped generalizing and name calling you could notice my first post this AM where I noted that winning by 10 games in June is actually duller than losing by 10 games in June because it even takes the auction out of play. What I really want is to be seeded in a league where I'm at more or less the right level.

And I don't see where my opinion is worth any less (or more) to the developers than yours just because I'm not calling people names and making up straw man arguments.

You fall into the same logic trap as every other poster that has brought this up one way or another. Perfect Team *is* free. It does not cost you a single cent. It is an additional, wholly optional game mode. If you bought OOTP 19 in April, you were not charged again in October.

I'm pretty sure OOTP19 was marketed as including the new Perfect Team mode, which means that yes, I did pay for PT as part of the new, enhanced OOTP. It was a big change to lure in users who might otherwise have been happy w/ OOTP18 (because if you, like me, play almost exclusively historical leagues, adding the latest season's players has zero value).

If midseason they had popped up with a new mode at no charge & without warning I would agree with you, but not when it was part of the package advertised.

[eldur00]

Originally Posted by mcdog512

I do think seeding teams by overall strength coming out of the entry league makes sense. Still wouldn't stop a guy from buying a super team once he landed in Bronze.

It wouldn't, but it would be lessened.


In a game where skill is not needed and the bulk of the game revolves around a simming engine and RNG, it is imperative that seeding is as strong as it can be, because you can't make up for the shortcomings of the system as you could with a game where your skills are also taken into account.

[eldur00]

Originally Posted by Radsmats

If you stopped generalizing and name calling you could notice my first post this AM where I noted that winning by 10 games in June is actually duller than losing by 10 games in June because it even takes the auction out of play. What I really want is to be seeded in a league where I'm at more or less the right level.

And I don't see where my opinion is worth any less (or more) to the developers than yours just because I'm not calling people names and making up straw man arguments.



I'm pretty sure OOTP19 was marketed as including the new Perfect Team mode, which means that yes, I did pay for PT as part of the new, enhanced OOTP. It was a big change to lure in users who might otherwise have been happy w/ OOTP18 (because if you, like me, play almost exclusively historical leagues, adding the latest season's players has zero value).

If midseason they had popped up with a new mode at no charge & without warning I would agree with you, but not when it was part of the package advertised.

Yep, PT was indeed a feature of the new OOTP, and since you cannot get to play PT without buying the game, this effectively makes this mode a Pay to Pay to Win system.

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by Radsmats

If you stopped generalizing and name calling you could notice my first post this AM where I noted that winning by 10 games in June is actually duller than losing by 10 games in June because it even takes the auction out of play. What I really want is to be seeded in a league where I'm at more or less the right level.

And I don't see where my opinion is worth any less (or more) to the developers than yours just because I'm not calling people names and making up straw man arguments.



I'm pretty sure OOTP19 was marketed as including the new Perfect Team mode, which means that yes, I did pay for PT as part of the new, enhanced OOTP. It was a big change to lure in users who might otherwise have been happy w/ OOTP18 (because if you, like me, play almost exclusively historical leagues, adding the latest season's players has zero value).

If midseason they had popped up with a new mode at no charge & without warning I would agree with you, but not when it was part of the package advertised.

Sort of....as I recall it was mentioned there would be a new mode sometime in 2018 but no details whatsoever were given as to what it was until something like Sept/Oct so I certainly hope no one bought it for that reason. I would agree one could consider it an important piece of 2020 although I still wouldn't view Perfect Team as the "primary" game I'm buying. Same as most sports game where they come with lots of mode, some of which I never use. Ever.

[BoofBonser26]

It would be very simple to say, for example, that at the end of entry league play, if your team played at least 100 games and had a winning % of:

.850+ - straight to Gold
.700-.849 - straight to Silver
anything lower, or didn't play 100 games - Bronze as usual

That would likely be a 20 feature, but could be a great help. You tweak the numbers to ensure you only catch true whales, and hopefully it works.

Another option is no change, of course, but that's my proposal for a "fair" faster system.

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by Meg4byt3

I'd like to make it known that My Armadillos, with modest investment (under $50 for card packs) won the Perfect League Series, as the wild card with zero perfect players and with defeating many teams more heavily invested in.

This seems like the best possible scenario for the small money teams. Might I ask, how was your pack luck?

[max venerabel]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

This seems like the best possible scenario for the small money teams. Might I ask, how was your pack luck?

It can happen I guess. I also have done decently well on a small budget. I've spent maybe $70 total, have a modest group of five pretty cheap historical diamonds (average purchase price: 12K), and one very lucky historical perfect I got from a pack.

Last week, I went to the LCS game 7 in Perfect. If a couple other things had broken my way I guess I could have won that game (I didn't), then I suppose maybe I could have won the WS with this roster. In a short series, anything can happen.

I built what I consider a pretty good team for not much money, but I also did need a lot of luck to get to the LCS. Most importantly, I was in what was by far the weakest division in the association, which I won with like 87 wins.

This year, there are twice as many "whale" teams in my perfect association, and my division is one of the toughest. I really don't have a prayer of touching the playoffs. I'm still enjoying PT, but I do think the game would have more longevity if it was structured with more separation between the best (most expensive) teams and the rest of us. I think the way to do that is more levels of play.

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

This seems like the best possible scenario for the small money teams. Might I ask, how was your pack luck?

I'm not the Armadillo guy but I got pretty lucky with my free to play Gutter Cats....I believe I pulled two perfects right away. I kept Sale and he heads up my staff and sold Eckersly for something like 42k which funded a whole slew of really solid players.

[chazzycat]

Wow. Yeah pack luck is really a huge part of it. I spent $40 myself (opened 50 packs from that alone...probably 70-80 packs total) and have just never pulled any card that moved the needle a whole lot. The best I got from all those packs was one diamond card worth the minimum 4k (Kris Bryant). Just bad luck I guess

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by Radsmats

I'm pretty sure OOTP19 was marketed as including the new Perfect Team mode, which means that yes, I did pay for PT as part of the new, enhanced OOTP. It was a big change to lure in users who might otherwise have been happy w/ OOTP18 (because if you, like me, play almost exclusively historical leagues, adding the latest season's players has zero value).

At best it could have lured in the "Oh! New! Shiny!" crowd. There was at the time next to no info about PT at all. From the original OOTP 19 announcement (to be found here: http://cdnsite.ootpdevelopments.com/...221/index.html ), this is all there is to say about PT at that point:

Finally, we have an exciting new online feature called PERFECT TEAM that we’ll unveil this summer, with an open Beta happening this spring.

And all of that got pushed back several months. Frankly, if that made you buy OOTP 19, then anything would have. They can go easy this spring. How about this bottom line: "Buy OOTP 20 - it will not make you like ice cream one bit less"?

As a further point, 19 does not cost more than 18 did, despite PT (eventually) being included in it.