Competitive balance discussion

[NYY #23]

Originally Posted by matingly23

Everyone who has OOTP has already paid for the game.

If you want to pay more to win against people online, then play other people who are willing to pay for that.

Server time for "free" players is more than covered already by the cost of the game IMO.

Only on the internet can two people with usernames named after Don Mattingly "argue".

I get everyone wants everything for free, but it's a company, what do you expect? I really don't want to argue beyond that. I should really stay out of this thread. Have a good night everyone, and if you see me posting in this thread again yell at me...

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by Maddox

Why would you assume that? The price of the game has not gone up this year to accommodate this new game mode and the servers required to run it.

True enough. But honestly, do you feel like the additional revenue hasn't covered the hosts, virtual machines and storage?

[screamingpalm]

Originally Posted by NYY #23

Only on the internet can two people with usernames named after Don Mattingly "argue".

I get everyone wants everything for free, but it's a company, what do you expect? I really don't want to argue beyond that. I should really stay out of this thread. Have a good night everyone, and if you see me posting in this thread again yell at me...

They could charge an entry fee and I would be down. It's not about the money. It's not about winning or losing. It's about the attack of the clones and a broken economy and AH. It's about a mode that I think would be awesome. And it's just a suggestion. Not sure why it angers you so much. People are allowed to like different things.

My entire team was drawn from packs. You think I didn't spend any money?
1 perfect, 7 diamonds (drew two in a row in one day- Yelich and Diaz), 11 gold, 5 silver, 1 bronze Ichiro. They only cards I bought from the AH were 1 gold and 1 silver this season to try and stay ahead. I'm not saying it is the best way- my 100 Ohtani got rocked by a barrage of Corbins this month and my 5 game lead evaporated to one. But it is more enjoyable for me.

If that's OK.

(Whew! I thought my team was going to choke but we made it- second to last game of the season lol).
((Ohtani beat a Corbin to do it! haha))

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by screamingpalm

To each their own heh. Personally, I prefer an element of randomness and coming up with a strategy. Following a cookie cutter build order or meta isn't strategy in my book. YMMV

Duplicate cards = quick sell.

But this option removes the majority of the strategy. For the most part, you would not be able to build a team to your personal style and ballpark you prefer. You could only set up some platoon situations (assuming you get two players that complement each other) or tinker with lineup or game strategies such as steal frequency (again, assuming you get someone that can steal).

I see complaints from people that they are only drawn in to look at their team once or twice a week. This solution compounds that issue. I realize the option would be to go the paid route, but how many people would actually find that style of play remotely interesting. No theme teams, not strategy to building, nothing. Seems like it would be a dead league very quickly IMO.

[Maddox]

Originally Posted by mcdog512

True enough. But honestly, do you feel like the additional revenue hasn't covered the hosts, virtual machines and storage?

The additional revenue from people buying Points for real money? Yes
Additional revenue from extra game sales based solely on the introduction of this mode? Probably not

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by matingly23

Everyone who has OOTP has already paid for the game.

If you want to pay more to win against people online, then play other people who are willing to pay for that.

Server time for "free" players is more than covered already by the cost of the game IMO.

You paid for the singleplayer, non-card-based OOTP, which it might shock you to hear also took effort to produce and thus also costs money.

PT is a free extension to that, but you are entitled to nothing because of it, and your original purchase also does not qualify you for PP in that value or any other wicked idea people have already had many times before. You paid for singleplayer, non-card-based OOTP. You paid for this:

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by screamingpalm

Yeah sure, the problem though remains the same. Opponents rotation still remains: Corbin, Dierker, Verlander, Corbin, Carrasco, Dierker, Corbin... Doolittle and on it goes. Too many mirror matchups pitching and otherwise. I'm sure the higher leagues are the same with Mookie and Trout etc. I can try to get as creative as I can, but the problem remains.

Get promoted and you will not see those pitchers again.

[zrog2000]

OK, we've established that whales like to be whales and hate people who complain about whales. And we've established that FTP players hate playing against whales.

I guess there can be no compromise whatsoever. Only one side can be happy. The other side must quit.

We've also established that the people in the middle won't be spending much money anymore. I'm pretty much in that boat. It's fun to "dominate", even if it's at silver, but then you end up at a dead end.

[matingly23]

Originally Posted by Westheim

You paid for the singleplayer, non-card-based OOTP, which it might shock you to hear also took effort to produce and thus also costs money.

PT is a free extension to that, but you are entitled to nothing because of it, and your original purchase also does not qualify you for PP in that value or any other wicked idea people have already had many times before. You paid for singleplayer, non-card-based OOTP. You paid for this:

Then sell it as its own game, if I didn't pay for it, why do I have it? It's attached to OOTP to gain a user base, hence it's owned by people who own OOTP. Yes it takes time to develop OOTP, but some of that time is now being devoted to PT. There are only 24 hours in a day.

There are many examples of online games with both pay and free options out there, and they're not going bankrupt. Many offer the client software for free, whereas OOTP doesn't offer PT for free, you must buy their game to access it.

I can play a game like DDO for example 100% for free, with other people who are also using free accounts, and cut the whales out of the game 100%. Can't do that here, and if we're in a thread talking about competitive balance, well it gets ruined by it.

If I had to be in whale-parties in DDO I probably would not have played it so much, it's pointless to try to compete at that point, and that is how I already feel here in just week #3.

[Orcin]

Hate is a strong word. I don't hate anyone in this thread. I do spend a great deal of effort to defend the game because I love it and want it to survive. I know that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and I don't want the developers to hear from one side of the debate and get the idea that it is the only viewpoint out there.

I have always wanted to play against humans instead of the weak AI, but I never wanted to mess with online leagues because of personal time constraints. Perfect Team provides a competitive environment where I can test my skills against other human players on my own schedule and without my involvement if I am unavailable for a period of time.

The promotion/relegation feature ensures that players will be matched with other teams that are roughly equivalent. The feature works as proven by the competitive leagues that currently exist at all levels. It has taken time to become fully functional, but I am confident that the competition will continue to improve over the next few weeks. Baseball is a game where the best teams don't always win and good teams go through inexplicable spells of poor play. PT is like that also, and I think that people should show more patience when they have a bad season.

There's no question that the cost to maintain the servers and support the mode is well beyond that of the base game and requires a larger revenue stream. I am absolutely willing to pay money on top of the price of the base game to have this mode. The entire player base benefits from the money spent by those that have it and are willing to part with it. There would be no auction house without real money to support it, and the free-to-play gamers benefit greatly from the ability to use their achievement points on specific cards rather than fishing for upgrades via packs.

Some of the complaints will be resolved in time if the player base will only be patient and allow the development team to work through the growing pains of a completely new mode of play. Other complaints will never be resolved, because the game design will not change in a way that satisfies them. Perhaps that will make the game untolerable for some people and they should probably just step away rather than continue to frustrate themselves. People should continue to express their opinions on the game design and functionality, but we could all benefit from some tolerance toward those who choose to invest money in the game. The developers have already said many times that there will never be separate leagues for free players or salary caps or any other mechanic to limit spending. Perhaps it is time to just accept that fact and stop asking for it.

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Hate is a strong word. I don't hate anyone in this thread. I do spend a great deal of effort to defend the game because I love it and want it to survive. I know that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and I don't want the developers to hear from one side of the debate and get the idea that it is the only viewpoint out there.

I have always wanted to play against humans instead of the weak AI, but I never wanted to mess with online leagues because of personal time constraints. Perfect Team provides a competitive environment where I can test my skills against other human players on my own schedule and without my involvement if I am unavailable for a period of time.

The promotion/relegation feature ensures that players will be matched with other teams that are roughly equivalent. The feature works as proven by the competitive leagues that currently exist at all levels. It has taken time to become fully functional, but I am confident that the competition will continue to improve over the next few weeks. Baseball is a game where the best teams don't always win and good teams go through inexplicable spells of poor play. PT is like that also, and I think that people should show more patience when they have a bad season.

There's no question that the cost to maintain the servers and support the mode is well beyond that of the base game and requires a larger revenue stream. I am absolutely willing to pay money on top of the price of the base game to have this mode. The entire player base benefits from the money spent by those that have it and are willing to part with it. There would be no auction house without real money to support it, and the free-to-play gamers benefit greatly from the ability to use their achievement points on specific cards rather than fishing for upgrades via packs.

Some of the complaints will be resolved in time if the player base will only be patient and allow the development team to work through the growing pains of a completely new mode of play. Other complaints will never be resolved, because the game design will not change in a way that satisfies them. Perhaps that will make the game untolerable for some people and they should probably just step away rather than continue to frustrate themselves. People should continue to express their opinions on the game design and functionality, but we could all benefit from some tolerance toward those who choose to invest money in the game. The developers have already said many times that there will never be separate leagues for free players or salary caps or any other mechanic to limit spending. Perhaps it is time to just accept that fact and stop asking for it.

TL/DR - too f'ing bad, quit if you don't like it.

That's how this post is taken.

Promotion relegation works until/unless you are a good manager that gets promoted to perfect without spending (much) money. Then it doesn't work. That's when almost everyone in that position will quit because unless you're willing to spend hundreds, you may as well spend $0 since it's pointless.

I haven't even gotten to perfect yet, but that's exactly what will happen to me, guaranteed.

The point about server costs is kind of not really a point. I'm sure you could find hundreds of people willing to spend $20 each to be in leagues without the ability to purchase PP so that they can compete against equal competition.

This is not a complaint. This is just the way it is. Sorry if this post triggers any whales.

[atabakin]

I just don't understand the complaining. If PT did not exist, you (general you, not anyone specific) would still probably buy OOTP. This new game mode costs nobody anything. Any benefit anyone gets is strictly a bonus on top of the core game. There is no way that PT can cause you to enjoy the core game any less. So if some (e.g. whales) get more enjoyment out of PT, why does it make a difference? You are not paying any more for what you paid to get anyway. Why take away the enjoyment of others?

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by atabakin

I just don't understand the complaining. If PT did not exist, you (general you, not anyone specific) would still probably buy OOTP. This new game mode costs nobody anything. Any benefit anyone gets is strictly a bonus on top of the core game. There is no way that PT can cause you to enjoy the core game any less. So if some (e.g. whales) get more enjoyment out of PT, why does it make a difference? You are not paying any more for what you paid to get anyway. Why take away the enjoyment of others?

Literally no one has ever suggested that whales be limited in spending money in any way. There has only been discussion about making the game more enjoyable for the people who don't spend hundreds of dollars. Why take away their enjoyment?

[atabakin]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

Literally no one has ever suggested that whales be limited in spending money in any way. There has only been discussion about making the game more enjoyable for the people who don't spend hundreds of dollars. Why take away their enjoyment?

I have one team I've invested some money in and two that I haven't/won't. I'm not enjoying the free teams any less, because I know this game is just extra to what I'd be paying for anyway.

Now if the price for OOTP20 gets inflated, I will change my tune on that, but nobody is entitled to anything. This is a bonus game provided for absolutely nothing.

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by atabakin

I have one team I've invested some money in and two that I haven't/won't. I'm not enjoying the free teams any less, because I know this game is just extra to what I'd be paying for anyway.

Now if the price for OOTP20 gets inflated, I will change my tune on that, but nobody is entitled to anything. This is a bonus game provided for absolutely nothing.

No one ever said anyone is entitled to anything. This is a competitive balance discussion to possibly improve the game. Why don't you want the game improved?

As it stands now, for OOTP 20, I will spend $0 on PP since there is no point in getting to a perfect league faster to face unbeatable teams.

If OOTP wants to give players the option to join $0 PP leagues and charge $20 for that, I know a lot of people would sign up because that's more interesting than competitions to see who can spend the most money. Hey, there's another money making opportunity for OOTP! I would likely even spend that $20 3-4 times if it were any good.

Why do you want to take money away from OOTP?

[atabakin]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

No one ever said anyone is entitled to anything. This is a competitive balance discussion to possibly improve the game. Why don't you want the game improved?

As it stands now, for OOTP 20, I will spend $0 on PP since there is no point in getting to a perfect league faster to face unbeatable teams.

If OOTP wants to give players the option to join $0 PP leagues and charge $20 for that, I know a lot of people would sign up because that's more interesting than competitions to see who can spend the most money. Hey, there's another money making opportunity for OOTP! I would likely even spend that $20 3-4 times if it were any good.

Why do you want to take money away from OOTP?

If OOTPD's research shows that there would be enough interest in that to where their revenue would be greater than server costs, etc., they could do this. If not, they won't.

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by atabakin

If OOTPD's research shows that there would be enough interest in that to where their revenue would be greater than server costs, etc., they could do this. If not, they won't.

How much research could be done if everyone were forced to remain quiet like you seem to want?

[atabakin]

(decided to remove because I was probably coming off as too hostile)

[matingly23]

Can't wait to lose in the second round of the play-offs here in the fair and balanced Silver .318 League!!

My Keesters are going to be ravaged by Land Whales.

What was the point of doing this again?

[Maddox]

Originally Posted by matingly23

Can't wait to lose in the second round of the play-offs here in the fair and balanced Silver .318 League!!

My Keesters are going to be ravaged by Land Whales.

What was the point of doing this again?

Hey at least you made it to the playoffs. I have two teams and am not in the playoffs with either one and have not been in several seasons. And the time I have made it to the playoffs (4 times I think) I have only made it to the second round once. At least you got that 1,000 playoff appearance point payout.

I will look for upgrades in the market today,although I do not have many points built up on either team. I may be looking at another season of no playoffs again next season. To me this is a marathon and not a sprint, and I believe that those who think of it a a sprint (those buying perfect level teams in the first two weeks) will be the first ones to get bored. This mode to me is more about slowly building your team and not amassing the most victories from day 1.