Feedback needed: Shuffle teams prior to start of new season?

Markus Heinsohn · 01-04-2019, 06:38 AM

OK guys, we're in full swing of OOTP 20 development, but we will introduce some features of that into OOTP 19 PT as well.

Currently we are discussing how to handle team seedings into leagues. Right now we try to make sure that when you get promoted / demoted you stay with the teams of your former league if possible, in order to preserve rivalries. Teams who do not get promoted / relegated stay with the other teams in the same league, again the idea behind this is to preserve possible rivalries. Once a league is complete, the divisions are shuffled randomly, so that you probably don't end up with the same team in the same division.

Now the question is, do you like this? Or would you rather have us construct all leagues first randomly (plus using the friends feature if we ever get that working

)?

Please let us know!

zrog2000 · 01-04-2019, 08:27 AM

Rivalries can be fun, but what is way worse is being stuck with the same whale that you'll never beat. So I'd rather shuffle.

Gator993 · 01-04-2019, 09:37 AM

I love the concept of moving up with rivals but that loses steam when there is no in game message board. Don’t know how many people will even remember who they played with? But if the other option is completely random and has no balancing implications I think current system is best. If you stay in league you should always stay with others that stayed.

stl jason · 01-04-2019, 09:56 AM

will there be a way to show career win-lost records versus any long-time rivals? (or is there now and I just haven't found it). Right now on the team-by-team report, it will show how you've fared against all the other teams in the league for that year; but not an all-time record against them if you've been in the same league with them for many years (maybe a historical-team-by-team report... though that could get quite large after awhile

)

I'd say if/when the friends feature is working make that the top priority for grouping; then group by long-time rivals. It's fun to see some of the same teams year after year and watch how each of them improve (or not) as the weeks go by (so I'm kind of a hybrid of the poll choices)

Markus Heinsohn · 01-04-2019, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stl jason

will there be a way to show career win-lost records versus any long-time rivals?

No, this data is only tracked for the current year.

pappyzan · 01-04-2019, 10:27 AM

I like the idea of rivalries with random division shuffles, so the current system is pretty good as it is.

cfagyal · 01-04-2019, 10:31 AM

I'd prefer randomness, or at least more randomness. I unfortunately ended up in a 20 team diamond league this season, and was disappointed because I had so few new teams that I hadn't played before. I always looked forward in promotions to the new teams i'd see. Perhaps change it up so you remain with half of the teams you were promoted with, so you end up with significantly more new teams in your new league.

Markus Heinsohn · 01-04-2019, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfagyal

I'd prefer randomness, or at least more randomness. I unfortunately ended up in a 20 team diamond league this season, and was disappointed because I had so few new teams that I hadn't played before. I always looked forward in promotions to the new teams i'd see. Perhaps change it up so you remain with half of the teams you were promoted with, so you end up with significantly more new teams in your new league.

Personally I agree... it's really interesting to get to meet new teams, there is more to discover and more scouting involved than when I end up in a league with 20 teams I played against the previous season.

stealofhome · 01-04-2019, 10:54 AM

While I do like the rivalries that develop and I did vote to keep things the way they are, I wonder if there is another possibility? Rivalries are only fun when both teams have a chance at beating the other - could there be some way to increase randomness of seeding based on the team's record?

Typically the bad teams will either be relegated or stay in the level and all the good-ish (.450-.600 WPCT) teams will move up the levels with the good teams and lose to them every year. Could the good teams (.600/.650+ PCT) have an increased chance of being seeded randomly so that at least the good-ish teams could lose to a new whale in a new league?

I feel like this idea mostly only matters in the first few years of the game where everyone is moving up levels together and populating the universe. Then things should be mostly stable and rivalries will be formed as fewer teams are moving between leagues. It would be interesting to see how many new teams are being formed as the universe progresses in 2019 and how that impacts the leagues that have been running for quite a few game years.

Matt Arnold · 01-04-2019, 11:07 AM

Ideally for me I think we'd have a mix. So would be nice to keep all the teams that got promoted/demoted together into their new leagues, and if I could come back each year with anywhere from a handful to maybe half the league back, that would be a nice compromise.

Westheim · 01-04-2019, 11:18 AM

Pro shuffle and friends feature here although I don't have any friends, but the rivalries in the game are maybe overstated. I don't know, I have been around a few teams in my current league for most weeks since entry pool, but the Rimavoska Sobota Baseball Club and the Belchertown Hoopleheads are still not my mortal enemies... Maybe it's me and my issue with feeling detached when I can't play out my games. I'd rather see different teams on a regular basis.

AirmenSmith · 01-04-2019, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zrog2000

Rivalries can be fun, but what is way worse is being stuck with the same whale that you'll never beat. So I'd rather shuffle.

Same for me. I find PT less interesting if I get promoted with the team that just destroyed the whole league. A shuffle would at least keep my interest even if whales are still present.

trips36 · 01-04-2019, 01:27 PM

I would say to keep them for rivalries. I like that. I am making friends with other users this way. If there was a way to separate teams that are whales by performance or some other metric that would be good. It is no fun to know the league champ after 2 days because they are so dominant.

mwb6 · 01-04-2019, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfagyal

I'd prefer randomness, or at least more randomness. I unfortunately ended up in a 20 team diamond league this season, and was disappointed because I had so few new teams that I hadn't played before. I always looked forward in promotions to the new teams i'd see. Perhaps change it up so you remain with half of the teams you were promoted with, so you end up with significantly more new teams in your new league.

I agree with the idea of mixing it up (league and division). It will add freshness to the game which will add to the enjoyment.

SayHey1 · 01-04-2019, 05:53 PM

One of the main reasons I'm sticking with PT (for now) is the chance I get to compete against friends as was promised would happen upon launch.

traylor45 · 01-04-2019, 07:10 PM

I like the idea of staying with your rivals, but I don't think it's working out all that well, at least at the start of leagues.

There's not much fun being in a league with 2-4 whales and no chance of having the best record, or anything beyond a wild card berth.

Playoffs are a crapshoot, so yeah, even a weaker team is going to win fairly often, but over the course of a full season, those whales are going to rake and everyone else is left with the scraps.

If you're a good, but not great team, you'll keep moving up and being stuck behind the same guys over and over.

If you guys tweak the algorithm next year so that the whales are more likely to be put in leagues with each other (place teams in leagues based on total card points on the active roster or something similar...rather than all the promotions being randomly assigned), I think that would do a lot to fix the issue and make me like the idea of rivalries a lot more fun.

bailey · 01-04-2019, 09:53 PM

I like the way things are now, but then I've been winning....
I like the fact that I beat the same "better" team 2 out of 3 times in the playoffs.
I'm hoping for a rematch in Diamond, but this time we're in different conferences, so unlikely.

I would dislike a random reshuffle every season. If you are in a league, you should stay in that league until promoted or relegated. The only new teams would be the ones promoted or relegated into it.

As a compromise, those teams who request a completely new league could be accommodated individually. A check box in the settings: please reassign me randomly each season, OR a check box please keep me in the same league unless promoted/relegated.

lgfrench · 01-04-2019, 11:25 PM

without any option for trash talking what the hell is a rivalry?

Dunzie · 01-05-2019, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stealofhome

While I do like the rivalries that develop and I did vote to keep things the way they are, I wonder if there is another possibility? Rivalries are only fun when both teams have a chance at beating the other - could there be some way to increase randomness of seeding based on the team's record?

Typically the bad teams will either be relegated or stay in the level and all the good-ish (.450-.600 WPCT) teams will move up the levels with the good teams and lose to them every year. Could the good teams (.600/.650+ PCT) have an increased chance of being seeded randomly so that at least the good-ish teams could lose to a new whale in a new league?

I feel like this idea mostly only matters in the first few years of the game where everyone is moving up levels together and populating the universe. Then things should be mostly stable and rivalries will be formed as fewer teams are moving between leagues. It would be interesting to see how many new teams are being formed as the universe progresses in 2019 and how that impacts the leagues that have been running for quite a few game years.

Nailed it.

+1

Markus Heinsohn · 01-05-2019, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lgfrench

without any option for trash talking what the hell is a rivalry?

You can trash talk on Discord or here on the forums...

View Poll Results: How would you like the PT league construction / seeding to work?
Keep things the way they are, minimum randomness	18	24.66%
Randomize & use friends feature for league construction	55	75.34%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

01-04-2019, 06:38 AM	#1
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,805	Feedback needed: Shuffle teams prior to start of new season? OK guys, we're in full swing of OOTP 20 development, but we will introduce some features of that into OOTP 19 PT as well. Currently we are discussing how to handle team seedings into leagues. Right now we try to make sure that when you get promoted / demoted you stay with the teams of your former league if possible, in order to preserve rivalries. Teams who do not get promoted / relegated stay with the other teams in the same league, again the idea behind this is to preserve possible rivalries. Once a league is complete, the divisions are shuffled randomly, so that you probably don't end up with the same team in the same division. Now the question is, do you like this? Or would you rather have us construct all leagues first randomly (plus using the friends feature if we ever get that working )? Please let us know! __________________ Buy Out of the Park Baseball 25 now! Download OOTP Go 25 for iOS Download OOTP Go 25 for Android Last edited by Kris Jardine; 01-04-2019 at 07:53 AM.

01-04-2019, 09:56 AM	#4
stl jason Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 10,112	will there be a way to show career win-lost records versus any long-time rivals? (or is there now and I just haven't found it). Right now on the team-by-team report, it will show how you've fared against all the other teams in the league for that year; but not an all-time record against them if you've been in the same league with them for many years (maybe a historical-team-by-team report... though that could get quite large after awhile ) I'd say if/when the friends feature is working make that the top priority for grouping; then group by long-time rivals. It's fun to see some of the same teams year after year and watch how each of them improve (or not) as the weeks go by (so I'm kind of a hybrid of the poll choices) __________________ Beer League dynasty thread - knock 'em back!

01-04-2019, 10:27 AM	#6
pappyzan All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 637	I like the idea of rivalries with random division shuffles, so the current system is pretty good as it is. __________________

01-04-2019, 11:18 AM	#11
Westheim Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Germany Posts: 13,827	Pro shuffle and friends feature here although I don't have any friends, but the rivalries in the game are maybe overstated. I don't know, I have been around a few teams in my current league for most weeks since entry pool, but the Rimavoska Sobota Baseball Club and the Belchertown Hoopleheads are still not my mortal enemies... Maybe it's me and my issue with feeling detached when I can't play out my games. I'd rather see different teams on a regular basis. __________________ Portland Raccoons, 92 years of excell-.... of baseball: Furballs here! 1983 * 1989 * 1991 * 1992 * 1993 * 1995 * 1996 * 2010 * 2017 * 2018 * 2019 * 2026 * 2028 * 2035 * 2037 * 2044 * 2045 * 2046 * 2047 * 2048 * 2051 * 2054 * 2055 * 2061 1 OSANAI : 2 POWELL : 7 NOMURA \| RAMOS : 8 REECE : 10 BROWN : 15 HALL : 27 FERNANDEZ : 28 CASAS : 31 CARMONA : 32 WEST : 39 TONER : 46 SAITO Resident Mets Cynic - The Mets from 1962 onwards, here.

01-04-2019, 08:27 AM	#2
zrog2000 All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 1,335	Rivalries can be fun, but what is way worse is being stuck with the same whale that you'll never beat. So I'd rather shuffle.

01-04-2019, 09:37 AM	#3
Gator993 Bat Boy Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 2	I love the concept of moving up with rivals but that loses steam when there is no in game message board. Don’t know how many people will even remember who they played with? But if the other option is completely random and has no balancing implications I think current system is best. If you stay in league you should always stay with others that stayed.

01-04-2019, 10:31 AM	#7
cfagyal Minors (Single A) Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 69	I'd prefer randomness, or at least more randomness. I unfortunately ended up in a 20 team diamond league this season, and was disappointed because I had so few new teams that I hadn't played before. I always looked forward in promotions to the new teams i'd see. Perhaps change it up so you remain with half of the teams you were promoted with, so you end up with significantly more new teams in your new league.

01-04-2019, 10:54 AM	#9
stealofhome Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 2,282	While I do like the rivalries that develop and I did vote to keep things the way they are, I wonder if there is another possibility? Rivalries are only fun when both teams have a chance at beating the other - could there be some way to increase randomness of seeding based on the team's record? Typically the bad teams will either be relegated or stay in the level and all the good-ish (.450-.600 WPCT) teams will move up the levels with the good teams and lose to them every year. Could the good teams (.600/.650+ PCT) have an increased chance of being seeded randomly so that at least the good-ish teams could lose to a new whale in a new league? I feel like this idea mostly only matters in the first few years of the game where everyone is moving up levels together and populating the universe. Then things should be mostly stable and rivalries will be formed as fewer teams are moving between leagues. It would be interesting to see how many new teams are being formed as the universe progresses in 2019 and how that impacts the leagues that have been running for quite a few game years.

01-04-2019, 11:07 AM	#10
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 15,859	Ideally for me I think we'd have a mix. So would be nice to keep all the teams that got promoted/demoted together into their new leagues, and if I could come back each year with anywhere from a handful to maybe half the league back, that would be a nice compromise.

01-04-2019, 01:27 PM	#13
trips36 Bat Boy Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 4	I would say to keep them for rivalries. I like that. I am making friends with other users this way. If there was a way to separate teams that are whales by performance or some other metric that would be good. It is no fun to know the league champ after 2 days because they are so dominant.

01-04-2019, 05:53 PM	#15
SayHey1 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 251	One of the main reasons I'm sticking with PT (for now) is the chance I get to compete against friends as was promised would happen upon launch.

01-04-2019, 07:10 PM	#16
traylor45 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 65	I like the idea of staying with your rivals, but I don't think it's working out all that well, at least at the start of leagues. There's not much fun being in a league with 2-4 whales and no chance of having the best record, or anything beyond a wild card berth. Playoffs are a crapshoot, so yeah, even a weaker team is going to win fairly often, but over the course of a full season, those whales are going to rake and everyone else is left with the scraps. If you're a good, but not great team, you'll keep moving up and being stuck behind the same guys over and over. If you guys tweak the algorithm next year so that the whales are more likely to be put in leagues with each other (place teams in leagues based on total card points on the active roster or something similar...rather than all the promotions being randomly assigned), I think that would do a lot to fix the issue and make me like the idea of rivalries a lot more fun.

01-04-2019, 09:53 PM	#17
bailey Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,366	I like the way things are now, but then I've been winning.... I like the fact that I beat the same "better" team 2 out of 3 times in the playoffs. I'm hoping for a rematch in Diamond, but this time we're in different conferences, so unlikely. I would dislike a random reshuffle every season. If you are in a league, you should stay in that league until promoted or relegated. The only new teams would be the ones promoted or relegated into it. As a compromise, those teams who request a completely new league could be accommodated individually. A check box in the settings: please reassign me randomly each season, OR a check box please keep me in the same league unless promoted/relegated. Last edited by bailey; 01-04-2019 at 09:57 PM.

01-04-2019, 11:25 PM	#18
lgfrench Minors (Single A) Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 63	without any option for trash talking what the hell is a rivalry?