Historical Player Ratings v. Present Day

Bagpipes5 · 12-03-2018, 03:31 AM

Is it me or do the ratings tend to really favor present day players over historical players? There are some instances where some really good historical players, guys who were all-stars and hall of famers, are rated much lower than their present day counterparts. I am an Astros guy and when I saw that the '99 Craig Biggio card is only a 73 ovr I cringed. Also, why '99 when '98 was his stud season? Compare that to the 2018 Altuve card that is an 89 ovr. Hall of Famer '93 Roberto Alomar is only an 85 ovr by comparison. He slashed .326/.408/.492 that year. Then compare that to the '93 Robby Thompson who was always his inferior offensively and defensively and slashed .312/.375/.496 but is rated higher at 89 ovr. There seems to be a huge ratings discrepancy, at least in how overall is tabulated. There are lots of other examples as well. 2018 Blake Treinen rated higher than '04 Mariano Rivera (96 to 93 ovr)? There is also an '08 Rivera that's rated 80 overall (he had a 0.67 WHIP that year) when 2018 Will Harris (Astros reliever that didn't get used except for 1 IP this last postseason because he was combustible) is an 83 overall. I also have a '96 Troy Percival who was beast that year who is only a 76 ovr. I could go on and on with examples but is this something that will be looked at moving forward? Until it is I personally would just rather play my offline franchises.

Also, I see a few historical players have multiple cards, like the '04 and '08 Mo Rivera's. Is there somewhere a player can look up cards that are in the game in hopes of building their 'dream team' and getting the best version of the player they want? Some historic greats seem to be 'missing', I've yet to come across a Mike Schmidt but I'll probably gag if Machado is rated higher overall. How many cards does each player get, as in is there a limit or is it subjective to whims? It also seems like some players have cards for years that weren't exactly their best years. Like why a '98 Chipper Jones when '99 was a much better year for him? Thanks and have a great day!

The Melancholic · 12-03-2018, 04:09 AM

A player's OVR rating really has little relation to his underlying ratings, it's not a composite rating, I think it's just hand-assigned by the devs. Compare the 90 Stephen Strasburg live card with the 90 All-Star Johan Santana, Santana just flat out has better ratings, (and he's left-handed, which the OVR rating usually "values" more.) The devs wanted to get "recognizable" historic players in the game, but they don't want to just have the only variety of players at the very top, so they choose non-peak seasons for some guys, and just give other guys artificially low OVR. (This also has the byproduct that you'll sometimes open a silver or gold card that's just better than it's rarity.)

In my experience virtually all "underrated" (by OVR) players in the game are historical players (well, and the real offenders, the Future Legends). If I could make an auction house filter to take out the MLB live cards I'd probably make heavy use of it (though you won't pull the wool over too many people, those cards usually sell for appropriate prices regardless of what the OVR value says.)

CrazyWR · 12-03-2018, 09:40 AM

Sadly, no there is not a place with all the cards listed. I've started creating my own spreadsheet, but it is far from complete.

Dogberry99 · 12-03-2018, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Melancholic

(...and the real offenders, the Future Legends)

This deserves to be highlighted in its own post

zrog2000 · 12-03-2018, 10:47 AM

Future legends are kind of ridiculous, almost as bad as if they were fictional cards.

stl jason · 12-03-2018, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zrog2000

Future legends are kind of ridiculous, almost as bad as if they were fictional cards.

random question (if Markus or the mods can say) on the future legends...

in version 20, when the "live" cards start to adjust based off the players actual performance... if one of these future legends turns out to be a complete bust, will we see their ratings plummet to a point where that gold level card shifts to silver... then bronze... then iron?

Whoofe · 12-03-2018, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zrog2000

Future legends are kind of ridiculous, almost as bad as if they were fictional cards.

especially when Adelberto Mondesi is given the low ratings he got after the season he had

Dogberry99 · 12-03-2018, 10:59 AM

I think it would be a crazy wild twist to see historical versions of Future Legends.

Imagine getting a HFL Brien Taylor, Todd Van Poppel, or Ben McDonald

zrog2000 · 12-03-2018, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogberry99

I think it would be a crazy wild twist to see historical versions of Future Legends.

Imagine getting a HFL Brien Taylor, Todd Van Poppel, or Ben McDonald

Imagine how much a Future Legends Sidd Finch would go for.

Ashbury · 12-03-2018, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zrog2000

Imagine how much a Future Legends Sidd Finch would go for.

I'll bid top dollar if I find an Eddie Gaedel. That 1.000 OBP would be gold at the top of my lineup!

scott1964 · 12-04-2018, 10:16 AM

Historical guys do not perform very well for me. Example, during beta I had Mark Fidrych and he sucked. Now I have Warren Spahn, he was a very good pitcher in his day, but only 2-3, 4.33 for me. Other great hitters are going sub .200.

Bagpipes5 · 12-04-2018, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Melancholic

A player's OVR rating really has little relation to his underlying ratings, it's not a composite rating, I think it's just hand-assigned by the devs.

Overall is a synonym for comprehensive not composite so there may be a difference of thought there. Think gymnastics or figure skating I guess. A '99 Biggio gets a 7.3 comprehensive score when '50 Eddie Stanky gets a 8.9 score (73 and 89 overall respectively). If you think that's right we just can't be friends anymore. j/k

Quote:

Originally Posted by scott1964

Historical guys do not perform very well for me. Example, during beta I had Mark Fidrych and he sucked. Now I have Warren Spahn, he was a very good pitcher in his day, but only 2-3, 4.33 for me. Other great hitters are going sub .200.

Performance is a whole different issue for sure beyond ratings and I'm having the same issues that you are with soaring ERAs and sub-Mendoza averages.

One Post Wonder · 12-04-2018, 11:52 AM

I used to think that. And the fielding adjustment does seem to be off (80's catchers are too good, pre 1970 players make too many errors). But those historical players are often the really good deals, despite their low OVR.

If you see a team and half his lineup are historical guys, that's probably someone who is going to overachieve. It might not be accurate, but it does create a balance.

I'm pretty sure I saw a Mike Schmidt once. But thinking about it, I've never seen a Barry Bonds. Are they out there? If not, is that because Bonds had some weird thing going on with the MLBPA? I remember him not being named specifically in the old EA baseball games.

Bagpipes5 · 12-04-2018, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

I used to think that. And the fielding adjustment does seem to be off (80's catchers are too good, pre 1970 players make too many errors). But those historical players are often the really good deals, despite their low OVR.

If you see a team and half his lineup are historical guys, that's probably someone who is going to overachieve. It might not be accurate, but it does create a balance.

I'm pretty sure I saw a Mike Schmidt once. But thinking about it, I've never seen a Barry Bonds. Are they out there? If not, is that because Bonds had some weird thing going on with the MLBPA? I remember him not being named specifically in the old EA baseball games.

I agree for the most part. I have the '74 Lou Brock (64 ovr) leading off and playing left field. He was great in the entry pool hitting over .300 with a great OBP for a leadoff hitter and stole over 60 bases. Now that I'm in bronze league it's a different story. He is hitting .160 with a .180 OBP and we are in the 2nd month of the season already. Then again I do have some whale teams in my division who's lowest starter is 85 overall. Which seems to be my point, overall seems to really matter when it comes to simming and stats and there are some really great HoF players rated very low. There seem to be some major discrepencies in overall as well even among historical players like my Stankey/Biggio comparison above.

As far as players I've still to come across a Schmidt...or Bonds...and others. There really needs to be a place where we can look up cards so we can build teams and know what's there. For example if I want to build an all Astros team I wouldn't know where to start. What are my options at catcher? RF? Pitching? Can I get a Billy Wagner to close? I see someone built an all-Tigers team but I've only seen like 7 total Astros cards so far. Correa, Altuve, Biggio, Bagwell, Jose Cruz, Springer, Will Harris. I've also seen Jimmy Wynn, who is best remembered as an Astro and has his number retired by the franchise but his card is a Dodgers card (yuck!).

Kem · 12-04-2018, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bagpipes5

Can I get a Billy Wagner to close?

Bagpipes5 · 12-04-2018, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kem

First I've seen, nice. But what about others? Is that the only Wagner card? Why does he only throw 92-94? He had a triple digit arm.

Orcin · 12-04-2018, 01:09 PM

Wagner's card sucks compared to Edwin Diaz. However, the real Wagner was better than the real Diaz. I don't get it.

Bagpipes5 · 12-04-2018, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin

Wagner's card sucks compared to Edwin Diaz. However, the real Wagner was better than the real Diaz. I don't get it.

There are lots of examples of this and I don't get it either. I am not going to throw real money at this under these circumstances, PT will just be something on the side/extra. When I get home I am going to load up a 1999 historical and compare Wagner's ratings.

captainbuttercream · 12-04-2018, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bagpipes5

First I've seen, nice. But what about others? Is that the only Wagner card? Why does he only throw 92-94? He had a triple digit arm.

IIRC, all historical pitcher velocities were automatically generated so some will be incorrect.

Randy Johnson was (is) listed as throwing in the mid 90s, too. If you report it, then it might get fixed.

Splitter24 · 12-04-2018, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bagpipes5

I've also seen Jimmy Wynn, who is best remembered as an Astro and has his number retired by the franchise but his card is a Dodgers card (yuck!).

I've seen a 1969 Wynn. Other historical Astros I've seen: '70 Denis Menke, '69 Larry Dierker and '72 Cesar Cedeno.

edit: I also remember seeing a 1966 Joe Morgan All Star, too, for whatever that's worth. Ah, yes, and a 1963 (I think) Hal Brown.

12-03-2018, 03:31 AM	#1
Bagpipes5 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: TX Posts: 519	Historical Player Ratings v. Present Day Is it me or do the ratings tend to really favor present day players over historical players? There are some instances where some really good historical players, guys who were all-stars and hall of famers, are rated much lower than their present day counterparts. I am an Astros guy and when I saw that the '99 Craig Biggio card is only a 73 ovr I cringed. Also, why '99 when '98 was his stud season? Compare that to the 2018 Altuve card that is an 89 ovr. Hall of Famer '93 Roberto Alomar is only an 85 ovr by comparison. He slashed .326/.408/.492 that year. Then compare that to the '93 Robby Thompson who was always his inferior offensively and defensively and slashed .312/.375/.496 but is rated higher at 89 ovr. There seems to be a huge ratings discrepancy, at least in how overall is tabulated. There are lots of other examples as well. 2018 Blake Treinen rated higher than '04 Mariano Rivera (96 to 93 ovr)? There is also an '08 Rivera that's rated 80 overall (he had a 0.67 WHIP that year) when 2018 Will Harris (Astros reliever that didn't get used except for 1 IP this last postseason because he was combustible) is an 83 overall. I also have a '96 Troy Percival who was beast that year who is only a 76 ovr. I could go on and on with examples but is this something that will be looked at moving forward? Until it is I personally would just rather play my offline franchises. Also, I see a few historical players have multiple cards, like the '04 and '08 Mo Rivera's. Is there somewhere a player can look up cards that are in the game in hopes of building their 'dream team' and getting the best version of the player they want? Some historic greats seem to be 'missing', I've yet to come across a Mike Schmidt but I'll probably gag if Machado is rated higher overall. How many cards does each player get, as in is there a limit or is it subjective to whims? It also seems like some players have cards for years that weren't exactly their best years. Like why a '98 Chipper Jones when '99 was a much better year for him? Thanks and have a great day! Last edited by Bagpipes5; 12-03-2018 at 11:45 AM. Reason: typos

12-04-2018, 10:16 AM	#11
scott1964 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Denver Posts: 5,626	Historical guys do not perform very well for me. Example, during beta I had Mark Fidrych and he sucked. Now I have Warren Spahn, he was a very good pitcher in his day, but only 2-3, 4.33 for me. Other great hitters are going sub .200. __________________ This just feels more like waiting in line at the Department of Motor Vehicles. PETA.....People Eating Tasty Animals.

12-03-2018, 04:09 AM	#2
The Melancholic Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 22	A player's OVR rating really has little relation to his underlying ratings, it's not a composite rating, I think it's just hand-assigned by the devs. Compare the 90 Stephen Strasburg live card with the 90 All-Star Johan Santana, Santana just flat out has better ratings, (and he's left-handed, which the OVR rating usually "values" more.) The devs wanted to get "recognizable" historic players in the game, but they don't want to just have the only variety of players at the very top, so they choose non-peak seasons for some guys, and just give other guys artificially low OVR. (This also has the byproduct that you'll sometimes open a silver or gold card that's just better than it's rarity.) In my experience virtually all "underrated" (by OVR) players in the game are historical players (well, and the real offenders, the Future Legends). If I could make an auction house filter to take out the MLB live cards I'd probably make heavy use of it (though you won't pull the wool over too many people, those cards usually sell for appropriate prices regardless of what the OVR value says.)

12-03-2018, 09:40 AM	#3
CrazyWR All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 549	Sadly, no there is not a place with all the cards listed. I've started creating my own spreadsheet, but it is far from complete.

12-03-2018, 10:47 AM	#5
zrog2000 All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 1,339	Future legends are kind of ridiculous, almost as bad as if they were fictional cards.

12-03-2018, 10:59 AM	#8
Dogberry99 All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: Wichita Falls, TX Posts: 1,328	I think it would be a crazy wild twist to see historical versions of Future Legends. Imagine getting a HFL Brien Taylor, Todd Van Poppel, or Ben McDonald

12-04-2018, 11:52 AM	#13
One Post Wonder All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 538	I used to think that. And the fielding adjustment does seem to be off (80's catchers are too good, pre 1970 players make too many errors). But those historical players are often the really good deals, despite their low OVR. If you see a team and half his lineup are historical guys, that's probably someone who is going to overachieve. It might not be accurate, but it does create a balance. I'm pretty sure I saw a Mike Schmidt once. But thinking about it, I've never seen a Barry Bonds. Are they out there? If not, is that because Bonds had some weird thing going on with the MLBPA? I remember him not being named specifically in the old EA baseball games.

12-04-2018, 01:09 PM	#17
Orcin Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Indiana Posts: 9,890	Wagner's card sucks compared to Edwin Diaz. However, the real Wagner was better than the real Diaz. I don't get it.