Competitive balance discussion

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

Here’s what I wonder. What if someone spends $100 to stack their team and, because of it, 20 people who would’ve spent $5 each drop out altogether before spending a dime? The same revenue is generated for OOTPD, but 20 potential players leave with a bad taste in their mouths. Who wins?

A fair question... in that case, OOTPD loses business. But there is another possibility. Someone spends $100 to stack their team and because of that, 20 more people spend $50 to compete with them. In that case, OOTPD wins.

The issue here is not whether OOTPD wins or loses financially; it is whether the game is still fun when some people have better teams than others. Did Cubs fans stop going to games for 100 years because they weren't winning?

[pstrickert]

No, but many other (losing) teams did see their attendance decline. Some of those teams even left town.

[pstrickert]

Originally Posted by Orcin

A fair question... in that case, OOTPD loses business. But there is another possibility. Someone spends $100 to stack their team and because of that, 20 more people spend $50 to compete with them. In that case, OOTPD wins.

The issue here is not whether OOTPD wins or loses financially; it is whether the game is still fun when some people have better teams than others. Did Cubs fans stop going to games for 100 years because they weren't winning?

I have no idea what'll happen. I guess we'll see. :-\

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by Orcin

I spent $20 on points when it became active on Steam. Does that make me a high roller?

I thought it was a good idea to reward OOTPD for developing this game that is giving me so much enjoyment. The $20 investment is only half the cost of the regular game and this add-on (which they have provided free) is well worth IMO.

It is getting a little old to be constantly made to feel like a cheater for spending money on the game. I get that not everyone has disposable income to throw around, but $20 is not a big amount to spend. It barely buys dinner and a drink at most sports bars.

So seriously... I want to know... is $20 what you consider a high roller? If not, where is that line exactly?

Is it really that game-breaking to open 25 packs or buy a couple of diamond cards on the AH? My roster contains 1 perfect and 1 diamond (both from packs). Is a couple of nice cards that you don't have really worth all this angst?

Here's something else to consider. You can't draw conclusions from someone's roster about how much money they spent or whether they cheated. You have no idea how many achievement points they earned or what cards they got from packs. You haven't seen their auction activity either. Maybe they are just good at the auction mini-game, or maybe they just got lucky with a couple of perfects or high diamonds.

Envy is running rampant on this forum. Maybe instead of ranting about how the game is ruined by PTP (before it is even released) we should spend our efforts working on strategies to win without paying. I intend to win at the top levels without regard to how much money other people spent. I plan to do it with smart play and hopefully some good luck. If I fail, so what? I will have a lot of fun trying.

Thanks for patiently listening to my rant. I am not directing this at any particular person or post or even this thread. I am responding to the constant flood of complaining about PTP.

I hope you will consider my question... how much is too much? Is spending $1 unfair? $5? $10? $20? $100? $1,000?

I am in agreement with you Orcin.I have grown grandsons that combined to put $50 in my Steam account as I posted earlier in this thread. Do I have any perfects? No.I have some diamonds but.mostly golds. Most of my diamonds I bought on the AH from selling on the AH and earning PP achievements. Some achievements pay well and can be scored fairly regularly if your team is constructed right. Many people, like Zorro, that are doing well are just plain outworking other people.I do not consider myself a big spender but when I bought the first packs I got a diamond and sold it immediately instead of trying to build my team with one diamond card that did not fit my team.I work hard in the AH with 14 pages of "Your Auctions" listed because I keep only 25 players.If someone spends $10,000 dollars, all I say is good for OOTP and therefore good for me in the long run.

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by Orcin

It is getting a little old to be constantly made to feel like a cheater for spending money on the game. I get that not everyone has disposable income to throw around, but $20 is not a big amount to spend. It barely buys dinner and a drink at most sports bars.

So seriously... I want to know... is $20 what you consider a high roller? If not, where is that line exactly?

$20 is *nothing* in the context of this sort of game or games with "premium content". You will not likely come up with conclusive numbers, ever, but from what I have seen and read it seems like this business model sees 90% of revenue generated by 10% of the users - in that ballpark.

I have played World of Tanks for a number of years, which is also free to play with plenty of premium content. Tanks, XP boosts, equipment, various quality-of-life shortcuts, or just turn hard cash into XP to skip the grind to the next tank. I haven't played for a while, but there was a time when they came up with a new €50 premium tank every four weeks, and I know people that bought ALL of them. There is NO limit on spending in "free to play" games, and there will never be, because it is not how businesses operate. Somebody should slap that on the loading screen.

You know, I get people that don't spend money on these games in principle, which is their prerogative - the game is free to play after all. Personally, I haven't, but I am not opposed to it. In fact, I have an ancient leftover Paysafecard with a few bucks left on it that serves no ostensible other purpose than to be turned into three Burch Smiths and a deep sigh.

I have a harder time with the folks who refuse to spend money and also refuse to play against people who do spend money. That's not how the business works, and if you open another 25 threads on the topic, the business still doesn't work that way. (And especially baseball is a sport where the biggest budget does not always win. Right, Dodgers?)

What really perplexes me is the type of people who are very vocal about in-game transactions and paid DLC because they can't afford the ten bucks and thus it should all be free for everybody (which again is not how businesses operate). If you are ten bucks from oblivion, why are you playing games? Work additional hours, geez.

I also don't think that OOTPD will lose money over this in the short or long term. As I know people, 75% of OOTP players are probably not even aware that the game mode exists AT ALL. It is hard to believe, but people are *that* oblivious. And even for those that do and are annoyed by whales (who they should instead shower with hugs and kisses because their buying power makes PT free-to-play in the first place, and who, when PT jumps to "live", will be in leagues of their own within a month and you will never see them again), that still leaves the singleplayer experience. I don't see, how the existence of people that spend hundreds and potentially more on PT subtracts anything from the enjoyment of the singleplayer game. They will buy the new one come April, and probably at full price because they are oblivious that sales exist.

No, I have no faith in humanity. Never have, and never will.

[Orcin]

I am still waiting for someone to define the tipping point between reasonable and whale. Some people have said my $20 is not enough to be considered "spending to win". That's a relief. I no longer have to be personally offended by these anti-PTP threads and I can rejoice when I win the major league level in an essentially free manner. That said... how much is too much? What level of spending makes you complain and stop playing?

[Clavette]

Originally Posted by Orcin

I am still waiting for someone to define the tipping point between reasonable and whale. Some people have said my $20 is not enough to be considered "spending to win". That's a relief. I no longer have to be personally offended by these anti-PTP threads and I can rejoice when I win the major league level in an essentially free manner. That said... how much is too much? What level of spending makes you complain and stop playing?

$70

When I spent $20 i had 1 diamond and a couple golds. Was getting hammered. Spent another $50 this weekend and now I'd consider my team whale-ish 8 diamonds and mostly golds. Still missed the playoffs by a mile

[Westheim]

I am never personally offended by facts that just *are*, which is something I hate about the 2010s.

If you spend $20, you probably just like opening packs and have joy with the game. I approve of your actions. Reasonable people should not find much to complain about this. There will be an OOTP 20.

If you spend $400, you obviously really like opening packs or quick-buying perfect Harrison Baders off the auction house. Your team probably has only Gold+ cards. Markus sends you a personalized Christmas card. I don't particularly care, but some people will angrily point fingers at you.

If you spend your entire paycheck on PP to get that elusive fourth Babe Ruth card and send your kids to school hungry and without a shower, I wonder whether you have your priorities straight and we will schedule an intervention.

Yes, the intervention will take place during the times PT sims games. What do you expect us to do, come to your house at 4 AM?

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Clavette

$70

When I spent $20 i had 1 diamond and a couple golds. Was getting hammered. Spent another $50 this weekend and now I'd consider my team whale-ish 8 diamonds and mostly golds. Still missed the playoffs by a mile

We have a winner!!!!!

So there it is... $70. Ok now that we know what a whale is... how many people have spent $70?

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by Orcin

We have a winner!!!!!

So there it is... $70. Ok now that we know what a whale is... how many people have spent $70?

If $70 is a whale, some people will be the Pacific Ocean

[Orcin]

The point is AT LEAST $70... more the merrier but $70 is too much.

[Kushiel]

I get where you're coming from. There's gonna be a lot of whales next year in OOTP 20! If some one starts in April buying $10 a month thru November, they will have spent $80 and look like the whale on those TV commercials. This is too funny. People whining about the money never realize how little can be spent to compete. I say more power to OOTP and I would bet many will spend that.

[Orcin]

These various threads are claiming the game is ruined already. Not OOTP20, this one that hasn't even been released yet.

Markus said five days ago that there were 6500 teams, i.e. unique accounts. How many of those do you suppose have spent $70? Judging by all the threads and posts complaining about spending, the vast majority of people have not. Would you suppose 10% (650)?

[Kushiel]

I would say 10% to 20% might be close, but I have no idea. I am sure of one thing though. That number will likely double or more next week when there are more buying options.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

I would say 10% to 20% might be close, but I have no idea. I am sure of one thing though. That number will likely double or more next week when there are more buying options.

The number of teams will also increase when the game is out of beta. I think it is pretty unlikely that your AA league will be crawling with whales, much less single A. I think it is clear that there will be plenty of room for free to play teams to compete in a balanced environment.

[Kushiel]

I think so too. I see good teams in my league with lower cards that are being managed well. They will be a lot better over time as they build PP. I think good players will shine over time no matter their budget. My budget is small as retired person with a fixed income. I will have some Steam dollars because I have successful grown grand children that remember PawPaw taking them to the ballpark and they have stated that they will do so again next year.I intend to go as high as I can with what I have. I am too old to worry about "keeping up with the Joneses."

[Thalion]

Originally Posted by Orcin

I am still waiting for someone to define the tipping point between reasonable and whale. Some people have said my $20 is not enough to be considered "spending to win". That's a relief. I no longer have to be personally offended by these anti-PTP threads and I can rejoice when I win the major league level in an essentially free manner. That said... how much is too much? What level of spending makes you complain and stop playing?

It's the point where a person decides he doesn't want to spend.... i.e. always a few dollars more than he did.

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by Thalion

It's the point where a person decides he doesn't want to spend.... i.e. always a few dollars more than he did.

The objective answer. Any dollar amount subjective.

[stl jason]

I say spend away if it's what you want to do and quickly assembling a juggernaut team makes you happy.... gonna keep trying to pull together the best I can from the points I gain in-game.

I can't say who in my league has spent money and/or how much they have spent... the best team this season has 7 diamond/6 gold/12 silver players, so if they spent money, probably wasn't a ton.... and while they won the division and ended up 9 games ahead of me; I won the season series from them going head-to-head.... which hopefully bodes well for my boys if I manage to get through the wildcard game and meet my division foe in the next round.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Heh, this is going to be funny if I close the wildcard door on the guy behind me with the 9 golds and 16 silvers. I'm still 1 1/2 up on Sept. 26 and it's going down to the wire. I think he'll pull it off, but we'll see.

Well, I didn't make it but note the date on this news. Kudos to me for putting a scare into the big boys.