I cant stand Billy Beane

Plutoro · 07-22-2003, 11:52 PM

Hes now crossed the line from genious to arrogant.

He is to self-confident and extreme with his system, and it is comming back to bite him in the ass (well it will).

Despite my personal feelings on BA vs OBP (i think BA is now getting overlooked, walks are great but a guy cant score from 2nd on 1) as well as my feeling on the super-stats of today (win shares jumps out) I did honestly like the fact a guy had a plan that he stuck too and he did value the walk.

But with the whole Tejada thing now, and the Giambi thing perviously. He thinks that his system is too good for a superstar (yes he could keep Tejada if he wanted, and he coulda had Giambi for a no trade) hes showing extreme arrogance on the perfection of his system, which has some flaws.

I think he now over-values the walk. Minor leaguers have too walk atleast 1/3 of the time or some insane # like that to advance and thinking guys like Hatteberg are great because they can take a walk.

His anti-steal opinion rubs me the wrong way. Not liking the steal is one thing but he takes it too the extreme..

Also his stance on just using stats for the draft was completely absurd. Yea stats are a nice base but comeon evaluating high school kids on there stats.

I mean I dont agree with his philosophy which is fine really, but when he was moderate with it I liked him but now that he is so extreme and smug it has become annoying.

The parts of moneyball i've read he comes off too cocky...

His system is not flawless as evident by the lack of postseason success is proof of that, but he pretends it is and his lack of making an exception for the star players (not every player needs to be a perfect fit) has made me dislike him now.

Dwolfson20 · 07-22-2003, 11:55 PM

Over/Under: 200 posts

holyroller · 07-22-2003, 11:56 PM

I'll take the under. If only because the flame fest threat warning is only orange. If GForce starts posting it will move to red and the over will be the way to go.

Dwolfson20 · 07-23-2003, 12:01 AM

I'd like to respond to this, but I honestly have no idea where to start.

AccardoOutfit29 · 07-23-2003, 12:02 AM

Billy Beane is a ****ing genius. I would let him rape my *******. I'm dead serious. If you have issues with Beane, you must not be a true American.

Jeremy Weimer · 07-23-2003, 12:08 AM

Well that guy seems to know where to start. I have no idea how to respond to that.

darkcloud4579 · 07-23-2003, 12:11 AM

I think the whole Oakland A's thing is a bit much. Like its too self congratulatory. Its not like they won the f-ing World Series or even a pennant. And look at them now, its not like they're exactly a threat to Seattle.

Its not to say that their organization isn't talented or that he didn't do a good job. But to treat being a GM like its some sort of holy grail that none of us can hope to reach is ludicrious.

The A's good team, sure. But to start theorizing like the "Book of Billy Beane" should be some sort of Canon added to the major league GM's bible, is a little much.

Surely, a team of us could get together and put together a pretty talented major league club every year. That might sound nuts and its not entirely because of our gaming experience, but in general, I believe that this stuff is an inexact science. Especially when you consider that a lot of people running the game are not like "baseball" people.

Just my thought...

sixto · 07-23-2003, 12:14 AM

Wow. This thread is heading for exactly where you thought it could go.

Wonder if Jeremy Giambi's inability to slide is responsible for Beane's lack of genius in thousands of eyes.

Dwolfson20 · 07-23-2003, 12:15 AM

Like I've said before, the A's have played 15 postseason games in the past three years. That's not exactly a large body of evidence with which to judge them. Plus, considering their miniscule payroll, it's amazing that they even made the playoffs once, let alone three years running.

Skipaway · 07-23-2003, 12:23 AM

Well, Michael Lewis did a good job we'd have to say. Lewis and the media hype inspired by his work helped shaped Plutoro's mind. The vivid characters like Billy Beane are really alive under his pen!

Plutoro · 07-23-2003, 12:30 AM

Im not trying to debate his philosophy so much as his character.

I dont agree with his scheme but he's the real GM not me..

But I dont like how smug he is about it. He is a great GM, and a great drafter. He used to be more moderate with his scheme but after his past REGULAR season success he just acts like he is the greatest thing to baseball since they decided to go to 4 balls and 3 strikes.

Dwolfson20 · 07-23-2003, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Plutoro
But I dont like how smug he is about it. He is a great GM, and a great drafter. He used to be more moderate with his scheme but after his past REGULAR season success he just acts like he is the greatest thing to baseball since they decided to go to 4 balls and 3 strikes.

Regular season is like 95% of baseball. Postseason means nothing in determining the progress of organizations.

sixto · 07-23-2003, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Plutoro
He used to be more moderate with his scheme but after his past REGULAR season success he just acts like he is the greatest thing to baseball since they decided to go to 4 balls and 3 strikes.

You'd think by your caps that you mean to praise the A's management, but in fact I believe you mean to diss them.

Playoff success is, to use your caps, OVERRATED. Beane has assembled the prototypical postseason starting staff, lacking only in veteran presence and demonstrated clutch ability. He has cultivated rosters with players who reach base amply. I suppose the bargain-basement approach to bullpens, widely heralded by the SABR set, is the one area in which it is still almost impossible to convince a traditionalist that the A's aren't falling short.

From the reviews that I have read, since I haven't gotten the book yet, it sounds like Beane does cop an attitude. But suppose you were a computer programmer and surrounded by colleagues who insisted that the slide rule and keypunch machine were far superior to your "personal compuwhatzis." You'd also be pretty smug.

Plutoro · 07-23-2003, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sixto
You'd think by your caps that you mean to praise the A's management, but in fact I believe you mean to diss them.

Playoff success is, to use your caps, OVERRATED. Beane has assembled the prototypical postseason starting staff, lacking only in veteran presence and demonstrated clutch ability. He has cultivated rosters with players who reach base amply. I suppose the bargain-basement approach to bullpens, widely heralded by the SABR set, is the one area in which it is still almost impossible to convince a traditionalist that the A's aren't falling short.

From the reviews that I have read, since I haven't gotten the book yet, it sounds like Beane does cop an attitude. But suppose you were a computer programmer and surrounded by colleagues who insisted that the slide rule and keypunch machine were far superior to your "personal compuwhatzis." You'd also be pretty smug.

But how long did it take for the personal computer to actually become the machine it is today.

This isn't about his philosophy really just his attitude.

He could have very well found a great way of winning, but it has not been perfected yet. They arn't going to win there division and again they havn't won in the postseason.

I know the postseason has alot to do with who got hot going into it and yes he has managed to got into the playoffs for 4 straight years is it now. So I know he is the best GM in the league.

But he does not have a perfect system as of yet so he should not act as if he does.

Dwolfson20 · 07-23-2003, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Plutoro
They arn't going to win there division and again they havn't won in the postseason.

I know the postseason has alot to do with who got hot going into it and yes he has managed to got into the playoffs for 4 straight years is it now.

If you know that postseason doesn't mean anything, then stop using it to support your point.

JML · 07-23-2003, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Plutoro

But he does not have a perfect system as of yet so he should not act as if he does.

Does he ever say he has a perfect system in the book? I don't remember reading that. What he does say is that his system is using indicators which have always been ignored by rickety old scouts who rely on "the good face" to determine future success.

The point of the whole A's story is that he needs to find an edge to compete in the game, since he doesn't have the funds to take chances. Given the lack of funds and the success of the club, I think he has the right to cop a little attitude.

crackpott · 07-23-2003, 12:57 AM

How is he acting as if he does? You state he's being smug by taking his approaches to the extreme, but... logically, if using these approaches in "moderation" was making a damn good team, wouldn't the next logical step be to take it to a higher level and see what happens?

sixto · 07-23-2003, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Plutoro
But how long did it take for the personal computer to actually become the machine it is today.

This isn't about his philosophy really just his attitude.

He could have very well found a great way of winning, but it has not been perfected yet. They arn't going to win there division and again they havn't won in the postseason.

I know the postseason has alot to do with who got hot going into it and yes he has managed to got into the playoffs for 4 straight years is it now. So I know he is the best GM in the league.

But he does not have a perfect system as of yet so he should not act as if he does.

So basically he's better than your team's GM but you don't really like that fact so you want to knock him down a peg. I understand, truly. Ed Wade is my team's GM.

I know what you mean about not liking him. His Mabry/Giambi trade last year really was an arrogant move. Picking up Jeff Weaver and then saying "My job is to pick up undervalued assets and trade them for other undervalued assets" was a thumb in the nose of the face of Dave Dombrowski, who does have a WS ring.

You're missing the point about walks though, and so are most of the media and some of the players and actually some of the people who think walks are just the ripest banana. The stat of walking X percentage of the time is a result, not a cause. You walk often by being selective at the plate, you don't look at your OBP and determine whether or not you need to watch a few good pitches go by. I think this is currently Pat Burrell's confusion but I can't be sure.

OBP reflects a good approach at the plate. There's a difference between taking fastballs down the middle and sliders on the outside corner. Burrell I'm looking at you again.

Eckstein 4 Prez · 07-23-2003, 01:06 AM

I was going to do a long post here.... but it's probably just going to be piling on.

Dwolfson20 · 07-23-2003, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dwolfson20
Over/Under: 200 posts

For everyone who took the over, I've decided to add up the post counts of both threads.

07-22-2003, 11:52 PM	#1
Plutoro Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 276	I cant stand Billy Beane Hes now crossed the line from genious to arrogant. He is to self-confident and extreme with his system, and it is comming back to bite him in the ass (well it will). Despite my personal feelings on BA vs OBP (i think BA is now getting overlooked, walks are great but a guy cant score from 2nd on 1) as well as my feeling on the super-stats of today (win shares jumps out) I did honestly like the fact a guy had a plan that he stuck too and he did value the walk. But with the whole Tejada thing now, and the Giambi thing perviously. He thinks that his system is too good for a superstar (yes he could keep Tejada if he wanted, and he coulda had Giambi for a no trade) hes showing extreme arrogance on the perfection of his system, which has some flaws. I think he now over-values the walk. Minor leaguers have too walk atleast 1/3 of the time or some insane # like that to advance and thinking guys like Hatteberg are great because they can take a walk. His anti-steal opinion rubs me the wrong way. Not liking the steal is one thing but he takes it too the extreme.. Also his stance on just using stats for the draft was completely absurd. Yea stats are a nice base but comeon evaluating high school kids on there stats. I mean I dont agree with his philosophy which is fine really, but when he was moderate with it I liked him but now that he is so extreme and smug it has become annoying. The parts of moneyball i've read he comes off too cocky... His system is not flawless as evident by the lack of postseason success is proof of that, but he pretends it is and his lack of making an exception for the star players (not every player needs to be a perfect fit) has made me dislike him now. __________________ SMLB-San Diego Padres: Pre-season 2003, currently rebuilding (year 1 of 5). 15-22 now, Klesko and Burroughs are hot each hitting .325 plus, Bartosh and Keisler both making strong cases for RoY in the early season.

07-22-2003, 11:55 PM	#2
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	Over/Under: 200 posts __________________

07-22-2003, 11:56 PM	#3
holyroller Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: OTBL Forums Posts: 3,532	I'll take the under. If only because the flame fest threat warning is only orange. If GForce starts posting it will move to red and the over will be the way to go. __________________ Back to work, but not drawing a paycheck. TonyJ et. al.'s alias “I confused it with the chicken’s neck,” Mocanu, who was admitted to the emergency hospital in Galati, was quoted as saying. “I cut it ... and the dog rushed and ate it.”

07-23-2003, 12:01 AM	#4
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	I'd like to respond to this, but I honestly have no idea where to start. __________________

07-23-2003, 12:11 AM	#7
darkcloud4579 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 8,712	I think the whole Oakland A's thing is a bit much. Like its too self congratulatory. Its not like they won the f-ing World Series or even a pennant. And look at them now, its not like they're exactly a threat to Seattle. Its not to say that their organization isn't talented or that he didn't do a good job. But to treat being a GM like its some sort of holy grail that none of us can hope to reach is ludicrious. The A's good team, sure. But to start theorizing like the "Book of Billy Beane" should be some sort of Canon added to the major league GM's bible, is a little much. Surely, a team of us could get together and put together a pretty talented major league club every year. That might sound nuts and its not entirely because of our gaming experience, but in general, I believe that this stuff is an inexact science. Especially when you consider that a lot of people running the game are not like "baseball" people. Just my thought... __________________ ------ My Mods OOTP Advanced Stats & DFS Suite Managerial Strategy Pack Competitive Balance Tax Calculator Major League Women's Baseball (OOTP24) quickstart Indian Premier League \| 300+ years of baseball quickstart \| Expatriate League quickstart \| Off-Field Injuries Update \| Women's Name File for OOTP \| ---- Dynasty classics: Centurion comes to OOTP5 \| DC Moneyball Dynasty (2004)

07-23-2003, 12:02 AM	#5
AccardoOutfit29 All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 531	Billy Beane is a **ing genius. I would let him rape my *****. I'm dead serious. If you have issues with Beane, you must not be a true American.

07-23-2003, 12:08 AM	#6
Jeremy Weimer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 3,411	Well that guy seems to know where to start. I have no idea how to respond to that.

07-23-2003, 12:14 AM	#8
sixto Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,271	Wow. This thread is heading for exactly where you thought it could go. Wonder if Jeremy Giambi's inability to slide is responsible for Beane's lack of genius in thousands of eyes.

07-23-2003, 12:15 AM	#9
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	Like I've said before, the A's have played 15 postseason games in the past three years. That's not exactly a large body of evidence with which to judge them. Plus, considering their miniscule payroll, it's amazing that they even made the playoffs once, let alone three years running. __________________

07-23-2003, 12:23 AM	#10
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	Well, Michael Lewis did a good job we'd have to say. Lewis and the media hype inspired by his work helped shaped Plutoro's mind. The vivid characters like Billy Beane are really alive under his pen! __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

07-23-2003, 12:30 AM	#11
Plutoro Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 276	Im not trying to debate his philosophy so much as his character. I dont agree with his scheme but he's the real GM not me.. But I dont like how smug he is about it. He is a great GM, and a great drafter. He used to be more moderate with his scheme but after his past REGULAR season success he just acts like he is the greatest thing to baseball since they decided to go to 4 balls and 3 strikes. __________________ SMLB-San Diego Padres: Pre-season 2003, currently rebuilding (year 1 of 5). 15-22 now, Klesko and Burroughs are hot each hitting .325 plus, Bartosh and Keisler both making strong cases for RoY in the early season.

07-23-2003, 12:57 AM	#17
crackpott Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,961	How is he acting as if he does? You state he's being smug by taking his approaches to the extreme, but... logically, if using these approaches in "moderation" was making a damn good team, wouldn't the next logical step be to take it to a higher level and see what happens? __________________ Abandoned Planet - Check it out. The photos don't suck anymore.

07-23-2003, 01:06 AM	#19
Eckstein 4 Prez Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The OC Posts: 6,358	I was going to do a long post here.... but it's probably just going to be piling on. __________________ Looking for an insomnia cure? Check out my dynasty thread, The Dawn of American Professional Base Ball, 1871.