A litte update!

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by David Watts

My question is, where does this game rank amongst its peers when it comes to in game AI. I don't doubt that it has the best AI in the sports management genre, but doesn't that basically amount to video games and football manager? Is PureSim even around anymore? It's been forever since I played Strat or Diamond Mind. How does OOTP's in game AI stack up against those games? Action PC? I don't really consider those 3 sports management games though?

Indeed. The only sports sim that rivals OOTP is FM... and guess which sports sim has 3D graphics?

Honestly, I could do without the 3D, but I don't see how it's such a massive problem to some. OOTP is, and forever will be, in my mind, the best game on the planet, graphics or no.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by David Watts

My question is, where does this game rank amongst its peers when it comes to in game AI. I don't doubt that it has the best AI in the sports management genre, but doesn't that basically amount to video games and football manager? Is PureSim even around anymore? It's been forever since I played Strat or Diamond Mind. How does OOTP's in game AI stack up against those games? Action PC? I don't really consider those 3 sports management games though?

It easily beats out the Football and Basketball text sims we have available.

I'll even say its ahead of FM when it comes to roster decisions but that could easily change if I muck up my AI settings in OOTP Baseball. FM is my #1 text sim btw.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by DCG12

My point was more along the lines of time that Andreas spends developing tools for easier import/export of online leagues or tools to help online commishes or finding ways to tweak historical imports etc. These aren't AI related and could be argued that they take time and resources need on AI.

Now the thing is online is a big part of OOTP sales and Markus needs to do what is necessary to grow this part of the business just as adding a 3D representation will draw in customers who are drawn to a more visual game.

Also please understand that I don't really care about 3D, I was weined on Strat back in the late 60's early 70's. I play out all my games and am happy with the static stadium backgrounds I have found around the web so I don't have a horse in this race. I just don't get the amount of angst it causes some people. In particular after Markus has said in other threads that Jorin is the 3D guru (therefore not impacting AI development) and will eventually help the other OOTPDev games in this area. If anything I might argue that the more people Markus can afford to hire the better overall game we will have.

All valid points. And it's fine if you don't have the concern that myself and others do. You're allowed to feel that way, just as we are allowed to be concerned. Please don't interpret my posts as a prediction of OOTP's demise. I'm simply saying that I have reason to be concerned that OOTP is going in a direction I'm not interested in. If that happens, I'll stick with whatever version is the last one that suits my needs.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

Aren't most online leagues ran with all users with no AI involvement?

This remind me of FOF7 where all the improvements were to AI but the online community felt that AI improvements wasn't enough after all those years waiting for an update.

Isn't the AI responsible for the simming of games in online leagues? Or for determining which team a free agent chooses? Those are just two examples off the top of my head.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

All valid points. And it's fine if you don't have the concern that myself and others do. You're allowed to feel that way, just as we are allowed to be concerned. Please don't interpret my posts as a prediction of OOTP's demise. I'm simply saying that I have reason to be concerned that OOTP is going in a direction I'm not interested in. If that happens, I'll stick with whatever version is the last one that suits my needs.

That's a good plan. I'll join you at that.

[MrWideFrame]

What exactly is the vision for 3d? And how has it enhanced the playing experience so far?

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by rpriske

Well THAT was the most disappointing thing I have read today...

I don't think I've ever agreed with Randy before on anything.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by David Watts

My question is, where does this game rank amongst its peers when it comes to in game AI. I don't doubt that it has the best AI in the sports management genre, but doesn't that basically amount to video games and football manager? Is PureSim even around anymore? It's been forever since I played Strat or Diamond Mind. How does OOTP's in game AI stack up against those games? Action PC? I don't really consider those 3 sports management games though?

I have always thought that the AI in Diamond Mind was better. But that is an opinion.

Personally, I don't want a good AI, or even the best AI in the business. I want the best AI that is possible. And I do not care one bit about 2D or 3D graphics. The game's the thing.

[Bowtie]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

We already have the best AI in the sports management games business IMO. So, $$ is better spent in areas where we lack, such as 3D.

In all due respect, this is where you and I are obviously not going to agree. How about making the best AI even better before you go to add any additional ingredients (namely the 3D graphics)? Meaning, why not improve the existing product before adding anything new?

Also, and I don't mean to be rude, but since when does a sports text sim game lack graphics (2D or 3D)? I can see making improvements to FaceGen but to skip the AI and move on to 3D is imho a mistake.

Originally Posted by rpriske

Well THAT was the most disappointing thing I have read today...

I second this ^.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

Isn't the AI responsible for the simming of games in online leagues? Or for determining which team a free agent chooses? Those are just two examples off the top of my head.

And there's minor league management, where in my opinion the AI needs a lot of work.

In fact, a LOT of work.

[pjh5165]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

And there's minor league management, where in my opinion the AI needs a lot of work.

In fact, a LOT of work.

Completely agree. Minor league management, AI roster construction and player valuation, the trade engine, scouting, bullpen usage, etc. are actual major gameplay items that could use some improvement.

Then there's the small stuff: the issues with jersey numbers, nicknames, trade difficulty settings, problems that arise using roster limits, text scouting reports, etc.

I agree that the OOTP AI is top-notch compared to the competition, but nobody would say that it's perfect as is. It's just concerning to a good number of us that 3D graphics, which are purely cosmetic, are taking precedent over making the AI even better than it already is.

You think they quit programming AI and minor league management and everything? Nope. They are even hiring the second programmer. It means they will do twice the work they do now. What's in there that you don't like?

[Caporegime]

Originally Posted by JcBoscan

Did you know millions in Africa are starving today? See ... I can use misdirection too. Lame.

Nice try, but no dice. My statement was an attempt to put things in some kind of perspective. In all seriousness, if this really is the worst news any of us hears all day, especially after considering all the horrible alternatives that could befall us personally or our loved ones, we should consider ourselves genuinely blessed.

In addition, some here are making it sound as if the game is nigh unplayable, and that Markus has never made a single refinement to the AI. I read his statement as well, and he didn't assert that he was done refining the AI (which he is constantly doing, BTW), just that he feels OOTP' possesses the best AI for any game of its type (Which is true, IMHO. FM isn't anywhere near as complex as OOTP) and that he wants to focus more resources on adding new features....the same new features, BTW, that other customers have repeatedly and incessantly requested here.

We can't have it both ways. I'm sure there are new features that we all want added to the game, and, of course, we all want OOTP's AI to perform flawlessly. The challenge that Markus obviously faces is how to balance the two without alienating one group or the other. Judging by the tenor of this thread, I wish him all the luck in the world with that.

[pjh5165]

Originally Posted by dmytron

You think they quit programming AI and minor league management and everything? Nope. They are even hiring the second programmer. It means they will do twice the work they do now. What's in there that you don't like?

Where did anyone say we think they stopped AI programming? You're twisting around everything that's being said to make the people who don't want 3D sound like idiots.

I'll make it simple: 1 3D programmer salary = 1 3D programmer salary that many of us would rather see spent on other improvements.

While I don't agree with it, I fully understand and respect that Markus wants 3D and so we will get 3D. It's his decision and his alone, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be allowed to offer our opinions on the forum.

Originally Posted by pjh5165

You're twisting around everything that's being said to make the people who don't want 3D sound like idiots.

You are not idiots, you're persons entitled to your own option. But everyones complaines like there will be no AI development whatsoever.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by dmytron

You are not idiots, you're persons entitled to your own option. But everyones complaines like there will be no AI development whatsoever.

I gotta agree here. It's probably just misphrasing, but there's some serious hyperbole going on in this thread:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

3-d, bah. Improve the simulation and the AI!

Originally Posted by Bowtie

I think hiring someone to improve the AI is more important in that if you read around these forums you will see numerous threads about how the AI does this, that or the other in an unrealistic way. While these AI issues may not necessarily be gamebreakers they can be disappointing/irritating/frustrating etc. Hence, making improvements to the AI first would be, imho, a good building block towards adding the 3D graphics.

Originally Posted by Honorable_Pawn

I'm cool with improved graphics but there are waaaaaay too many holes that Mark Johnson is ignoring. Graphics be damned. Fix the bad AI.

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

But I think the majority of those who don't have an interest in 3D (a group of which I am a part of) simply would prefer that the focus remain on the AI and not move to the visuals.

Now, I'm not saying that any of these people actually think that OOTP is going to completely drop the AI improvements in favor of graphics. In fact, I agree with a lot of their points. But it comes across as "Graphics vs. AI, pick a side", and that's not true in the slightest. There will always be AI updates. There might be MORE if the 3D wasn't being developed, and if you want to argue that point, I won't disagree with you. But I don't think there's going to be a noticeable dropoff. Every version of OOTP is going to continue to improve the AI, just like it always has.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

And there's minor league management, where in my opinion the AI needs a lot of work.

In fact, a LOT of work.

It needs work but lets not act as if its terrible or as if the team doesn't make any AI improvements every year/patch. Also the AI in my save handles it's minor league, trades and roster management just fine, maybe the AI settings you use is not the best after all?

[Caporegime]

Originally Posted by dmytron

You are not idiots, you're persons entitled to your own option. But everyones complaines like there will be no AI development whatsoever.

Exactly. Markus is constantly fine-tuning the AI - constantly. In fact, since I starting playing OOTP in 2002, I can't think of a single new version, patch, or minor update that didn't contain at least some improvements (significant ones, in some instances) to the AI. He's almost like a mad scientist at this point...obsessively tightening the screws here, patching this or that there, etc. The idea that Markus will henceforth neglect (benignly or otherwise) any further development of the AI is simply ludicrous.

[pjh5165]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

There might be MORE if the 3D wasn't being developed, and if you want to argue that point, I won't disagree with you.

That's it right there. More resources are clearly going into OOTP since they have a new 3D guy, and that money could be spent elsewhere. I don't think anyone is foolish enough to think that the AI improvements are suddenly going to be abandoned because there are new graphics.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by dmytron

You think they quit programming AI and minor league management and everything? Nope. They are even hiring the second programmer. It means they will do twice the work they do now. What's in there that you don't like?

Time, effort, and money wasted on 3D, that's what.