Terrible Logic for free agent signings after February

Johnny93g · 12-10-2013, 02:55 AM

I hope this has been mentioned here before, and I'm sure it has, but maybe I feel lucky, like Marcus might actually respond, because this one issue really really bugs me.

"I still think they(free agents) should always consider any reasonable offer, i'd say reasonable would be 60-75% of their asking price and then sign it @ the start of the regular season/halfway point in ST if they don't get anything higher. Every year we have guys turn down 12-15 M per and end up signing for peanuts @ the start of spring training. It's been a giant logic flaw that is obviously working as intended for a very long time. "

This is a post from the PCJBL forums, a OOTP league that has about a million rules to fix the holes the game was intended to make....

Common sense would suggest a free agent would take the best deal they can get. In OOTP, they simply don't.

Lukas Berger · 12-10-2013, 03:09 AM

Never mind

I'm going to check on this some more and maybe run a test or two before responding...

hfield007 · 12-10-2013, 04:32 AM

In my current league 2 million is superstar money.

Superstar 3B Stanton Johnson was set to make bank. He kep contract negotiations going forever, got several big offers...

Never accepted them and took 1.2 million (good but not great player money) instead one week into the REGULAR season.

He held out of spring training to make almost half of what he could've.

Mister_G · 12-10-2013, 04:47 AM

I haven't seen this too much, at least with MLB QS leagues. From what I've seen the only quality guys who hang around until the season starts and sign crappy deals are relievers, (which IMO is understandable) and guys who are injured. Every now and then I'll see a star player hold out awhile and take a short-term deal, but usually the money is pretty similar.

darkcloud4579 · 12-10-2013, 10:12 AM

This has been a problem for years.

The Game · 12-10-2013, 02:17 PM

I remember when Jermaine Dye was offered something like 6.5 from the White Sox and turned it down never to play again.

stevew · 12-12-2013, 05:15 AM

The player in question was a 27 year old SS that recently completed his 6th year of MLB service. As a former farm hand of mine, I felt like I kind of got taken on the original trade where I dealt him and I was interested in bringing him back into the fold.

Player Report for #26 José Ramírez

Original FA demands were I believe 8 @18m, which is pretty extreme although understandable. I wish there was a way to just limit the amount of years that guys could demand in a league setting, I see very few human GMs offering a guy 8 years.

I decided to offer the guy a contract like this, I can't remember the exact splits but I think it was something like 6m/17m/17m/17m(6m guaranteed). So I'm offering him like 46m guaranteed over 3 years, which is way below what he wants, and he more or less laughs at it(justifiably).

At the next stage of FA, approx around the league meetings, I offer him 5@14m, with the last year partially guaranteed. He of course still laughs at it. These likely were the only 2 multiyear deals this player received, however.

So it advances into February, when guys who have dreams often get realistic. He's asking for 6.5m/1year, I parlay that into a 3 year deal for 23.5m and he signs it, taking way less than half of the money of either of my previous offers.

wtf is wrong with this game, why wouldn't the player just say something like, "I don't plan on signing this offer at the moment, but if you're willing to keep it active I may consider it at a later date". The human GM could then withdraw the offer if he wanted to. This is a pretty large AI issue and should be looked at for subsequent versions of the game.

le receveur · 12-12-2013, 01:59 PM

interesting. only real problem i have with the events is that he took a 3 year contract. i would expect him to stay at the 1 year $6.5M

the guy gambled, and loss. it happens.. Look at Kelly Johnson who gambled in 2011, thinking he could increase his value after a so-so year. took arbitration, instead of getting likely 3-4 years guaranteed (old CBA). had a bad 2012 and is now going year to year below league average....

RchW · 12-12-2013, 03:32 PM

I just don't see the problem described at all. I see too many overpays especially as opening day approaches. Players who misjudge the market should pay dearly as the inventory of players is very quickly filled. Ask Robinson Cano. If Seattle had had the balls to wait he would have been lucky to get $170-$180M.

If anything I think players sign too easily and early in OOTP.

See the screenshot below. Game date is March 31.

On the left none of those players is worth even half the demand made. All asked for the stated demand when a contract was offered. I'll shortlist them and see what happens. These guys are has-beens at best.

On the right the bigger number contracts are all overpays IMO. The short term deals are more reasonable. However none of them are players who turned down big money earlier. They're just not good enough.

hfield007 · 12-12-2013, 03:36 PM

I rarely see their demand met as opening day approaches.

le receveur · 12-12-2013, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

I just don't see the problem described at all. I see too many overpays especially as opening day approaches. Players who misjudge the market should pay dearly as the inventory of players is very quickly filled. Ask Robinson Cano. If Seattle had had the balls to wait he would have been lucky to get $170-$180M.

If anything I think players sign too easily and early in OOTP.

See the screenshot below. Game date is March 31.

On the left none of those players is worth even half the demand made. All asked for the stated demand when a contract was offered. I'll shortlist them and see what happens. These guys are has-beens at best.

On the right the bigger number contracts are all overpays IMO. The short term deals are more reasonable. However none of them are players who turned down big money earlier. They're just not good enough.

agreed. i still have a reliever asking for $4M (current money) on July 21st, and will not even give me an option for next year. i needed him for my AAA team...

Lukas Berger · 12-12-2013, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

I just don't see the problem described at all. I see too many overpays especially as opening day approaches...

Same here. I think something might be off with some folks financials or settings.

dubb93 · 12-12-2013, 04:05 PM

Someone explain to me what a guy asking for too much after opening day has to do with a guy turning down major dollars to sign for peanuts? Pretty sure we should file BOTH of these under bugs, and I would include the whole "signing too quick" thing as not exactly working as intended either.

We all have the same idea here, they shouldn't downright turn away a reasonable offer, should take more time to figure out what the best offer will be(this works both for guys getting their asking price and a guy who isn't), and once the regular season hits, they should take what they can get or retire. None of it is working as intended. Especially in MP.

RchW · 12-12-2013, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dubb93

Someone explain to me what a guy asking for too much after opening day has to do with a guy turning down major dollars to sign for peanuts? Pretty sure we should file BOTH of these under bugs, and I would include the whole "signing too quick" thing as not exactly working as intended either.

We all have the same idea here, they shouldn't downright turn away a reasonable offer, should take more time to figure out what the best offer will be(this works both for guys getting their asking price and a guy who isn't), and once the regular season hits, they should take what they can get or retire. None of it is working as intended. Especially in MP.

I consider your idea that players should take "reasonable" offers as a much worse bug. My impression (based on 500+ seasons) is that what I see is much closer to but not exactly like real life. Close enough for me to be OK with it.

Edit:

To clarify, my previous post was not based on actions after opening day but actions during ST.

dubb93 · 12-12-2013, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

I consider your idea that players should take "reasonable" offers as a much worse bug. My impression (based on 500+ seasons) is that what I see is much closer to but not exactly like real life. Close enough for me to be OK with it.

Edit:

To clarify, my previous post was not based on actions after opening day but actions during ST.

The complaint still stands. Guys are turning down 3/70 in MP and signing 3/30 every single season. Multiple guys per season, every single season. If you aren't seeing it then I believe that you have merely played 500 SP seasons.

dubb93 · 12-12-2013, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dubb93

The complaint still stands. Guys are turning down 3/70 in MP and signing 3/30 every single season. Multiple guys per season, every single season. If you aren't seeing it then I believe that you have merely played 500 SP seasons.

If making them consider reasonable offers past the point when they would sign for cheap isn't the solution, then tell me what it is. Maybe we could use the house rule, or god forbid, it could be fixed in game. No one thinks a guy who would eventually sign for 3/30 should take 3/6, but if I offer him 3/70 and he's willing to sign for 3/30 in February, why shouldn't he drag out my 3/70 offer to that point and then sign it? If 3/30 is ultimately his number, why can't the game know that at the start of FA and consider everything above that until that point?

le receveur · 12-12-2013, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dubb93

The complaint still stands. Guys are turning down 3/70 in MP and signing 3/30 every single season. Multiple guys per season, every single season. If you aren't seeing it then I believe that you have merely played 500 SP seasons.

and this is different from real life? not sure where you get data about what guys turned down...

by February there is less options, he should be taking less... why would you let him drag the offer. after a week, i usually withdraw mine, and move on to the next guy...

dubb93 · 12-12-2013, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by le receveur

and this is different from real life? not sure where you get data about what guys turned down...

by February there is less options, he should be taking less... why would you let him drag the offer. after a week, i usually withdraw mine, and move on to the next guy...

I'm neither an agent or a real life GM, I have no idea what guys are turning down in real life, and quite frankly, neither do you. But in an MP league where every team is owned, the data is word of mouth on what guys turn down.

Your point is valid about letting it drag, if you withdraw it and move on, you definitely aren't getting that guy. In some FA pools I've seen in MP, that in itself would be quite the reason to keep the offer out there.

le receveur · 12-12-2013, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dubb93

I'm neither an agent or a real life GM, I have no idea what guys are turning down in real life, and quite frankly, neither do you. But in an MP league where every team is owned, the data is word of mouth on what guys turn down.

exactly, so i don't know if OOTP depicts real life. what i see seems reasonable to me, based on offer and demands from other business

Quote:

Originally Posted by dubb93

Your point is valid about letting it drag, if you withdraw it and move on, you definitely aren't getting that guy, which in some FA pools I've seen in MP, would be quite the reason to keep the offer out there.

yeah, i guess this is difference, i like to have my major acquisitions done by winter meetings, and then full up with remnants at the end. so if you can't decide i'll move on. only offers i let drags are for roster fillers, AAAA depth.

dubb93 · 12-12-2013, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Ask Robinson Cano. If Seattle had had the balls to wait he would have been lucky to get $170-$180M.

Major difference between a superstar asking a team for more when he has Seattle sitting @ the table with him too, than a guy who is merely "pretty good" flat out saying no to the only team interested in him.

Anyway, assuming Seattle walks, I doubt Cano comes back and signs in February for 7M per.

If you want to get on about a guy like Cano, we had a AAAAA SP hit FA a couple of years back. He got atleast a dozen offers, yet for some strange reason he signed in the very first off-season sim. That was pretty odd as well.

"Well they offered me fair contract, but we have 11 other teams who were close, think we should see if anyone else can offer a little more?"

"Naw, sign it."

12-10-2013, 02:55 AM	#1
Johnny93g Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 150	Terrible Logic for free agent signings after February I hope this has been mentioned here before, and I'm sure it has, but maybe I feel lucky, like Marcus might actually respond, because this one issue really really bugs me. "I still think they(free agents) should always consider any reasonable offer, i'd say reasonable would be 60-75% of their asking price and then sign it @ the start of the regular season/halfway point in ST if they don't get anything higher. Every year we have guys turn down 12-15 M per and end up signing for peanuts @ the start of spring training. It's been a giant logic flaw that is obviously working as intended for a very long time. " This is a post from the PCJBL forums, a OOTP league that has about a million rules to fix the holes the game was intended to make.... Common sense would suggest a free agent would take the best deal they can get. In OOTP, they simply don't.

12-10-2013, 04:47 AM	#4
Mister_G All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 576	I haven't seen this too much, at least with MLB QS leagues. From what I've seen the only quality guys who hang around until the season starts and sign crappy deals are relievers, (which IMO is understandable) and guys who are injured. Every now and then I'll see a star player hold out awhile and take a short-term deal, but usually the money is pretty similar. __________________ A man doesn't make mistakes, mistakes make the man @MisterG90

12-10-2013, 10:12 AM	#5
darkcloud4579 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 8,688	This has been a problem for years. __________________ ------ My Mods OOTP Advanced Stats & DFS Suite Managerial Strategy Pack Competitive Balance Tax Calculator Major League Women's Baseball (OOTP24) quickstart Indian Premier League \| 300+ years of baseball quickstart \| Expatriate League quickstart \| Off-Field Injuries Update \| Women's Name File for OOTP \| ---- Dynasty classics: Centurion comes to OOTP5 \| DC Moneyball Dynasty (2004)

12-10-2013, 02:17 PM	#6
The Game Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Inside The Game Posts: 30,937	I remember when Jermaine Dye was offered something like 6.5 from the White Sox and turned it down never to play again. __________________ Go today don't wait for tomorrow It isn't promised, all the time you get borrowed Don't live your life for other people Don't bottle your emotions till they crack and fill a couple just sorrows Take your mind and refocus go get a paper write your goals out Throw your middle fingers to all your haters "Stay Strong"

12-12-2013, 05:15 AM	#7
stevew Minors (Double A) Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 125	The player in question was a 27 year old SS that recently completed his 6th year of MLB service. As a former farm hand of mine, I felt like I kind of got taken on the original trade where I dealt him and I was interested in bringing him back into the fold. Player Report for #26 José Ramírez Original FA demands were I believe 8 @18m, which is pretty extreme although understandable. I wish there was a way to just limit the amount of years that guys could demand in a league setting, I see very few human GMs offering a guy 8 years. I decided to offer the guy a contract like this, I can't remember the exact splits but I think it was something like 6m/17m/17m/17m(6m guaranteed). So I'm offering him like 46m guaranteed over 3 years, which is way below what he wants, and he more or less laughs at it(justifiably). At the next stage of FA, approx around the league meetings, I offer him 5@14m, with the last year partially guaranteed. He of course still laughs at it. These likely were the only 2 multiyear deals this player received, however. So it advances into February, when guys who have dreams often get realistic. He's asking for 6.5m/1year, I parlay that into a 3 year deal for 23.5m and he signs it, taking way less than half of the money of either of my previous offers. wtf is wrong with this game, why wouldn't the player just say something like, "I don't plan on signing this offer at the moment, but if you're willing to keep it active I may consider it at a later date". The human GM could then withdraw the offer if he wanted to. This is a pretty large AI issue and should be looked at for subsequent versions of the game. __________________ Sim Tsar The Peanuts and Crackerjacks Baseball League

12-10-2013, 03:09 AM	#2
Lukas Berger OOTP Developments Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Nice, Côte d'Azur, France Posts: 21,363	Never mind I'm going to check on this some more and maybe run a test or two before responding... Last edited by Lukas Berger; 12-10-2013 at 03:12 AM.

12-10-2013, 04:32 AM	#3
hfield007 All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,713	In my current league 2 million is superstar money. Superstar 3B Stanton Johnson was set to make bank. He kep contract negotiations going forever, got several big offers... Never accepted them and took 1.2 million (good but not great player money) instead one week into the REGULAR season. He held out of spring training to make almost half of what he could've.

12-12-2013, 01:59 PM	#8
le receveur All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: canada Posts: 1,736	interesting. only real problem i have with the events is that he took a 3 year contract. i would expect him to stay at the 1 year $6.5M the guy gambled, and loss. it happens.. Look at Kelly Johnson who gambled in 2011, thinking he could increase his value after a so-so year. took arbitration, instead of getting likely 3-4 years guaranteed (old CBA). had a bad 2012 and is now going year to year below league average....

12-12-2013, 03:32 PM	#9
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	I just don't see the problem described at all. I see too many overpays especially as opening day approaches. Players who misjudge the market should pay dearly as the inventory of players is very quickly filled. Ask Robinson Cano. If Seattle had had the balls to wait he would have been lucky to get $170-$180M. If anything I think players sign too easily and early in OOTP. See the screenshot below. Game date is March 31. On the left none of those players is worth even half the demand made. All asked for the stated demand when a contract was offered. I'll shortlist them and see what happens. These guys are has-beens at best. On the right the bigger number contracts are all overpays IMO. The short term deals are more reasonable. However none of them are players who turned down big money earlier. They're just not good enough. Attached Images __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

12-12-2013, 03:36 PM	#10
hfield007 All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,713	I rarely see their demand met as opening day approaches.

12-12-2013, 04:05 PM	#13
dubb93 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 26	Someone explain to me what a guy asking for too much after opening day has to do with a guy turning down major dollars to sign for peanuts? Pretty sure we should file BOTH of these under bugs, and I would include the whole "signing too quick" thing as not exactly working as intended either. We all have the same idea here, they shouldn't downright turn away a reasonable offer, should take more time to figure out what the best offer will be(this works both for guys getting their asking price and a guy who isn't), and once the regular season hits, they should take what they can get or retire. None of it is working as intended. Especially in MP.