How does it compare?

[Ari]

Hi all,

Some of you may remember me from the glory days of EHM (pestering around on Fhockey and ITC). Others may remember me from my time spent working on NHL:EHM as a head researcher. I guess what brings me here is an inquiry of how this game measures up to either the freeware version of NHL:EHM or it's predecessor freeware version. I am considering purchasing once I am done my law school exams, maybe sooner. However, I have never tried any OOTP game. Does the game do the hockey manager simulation brand justice?

Cheers.

[Stinson]

Originally Posted by Ari

how this game measures up to either the freeware version of NHL:EHM or it's predecessor freeware version.

Right now, it doesn't. FHM is still six months away from release, and appropriately buggy.

[Habsfan18]

Right now, is it better than EHM 07? No.

Does it have the potential to surpass it? Yes.

[Primis]

Originally Posted by Ari

Hi all,

Some of you may remember me from the glory days of EHM (pestering around on Fhockey and ITC). Others may remember me from my time spent working on NHL:EHM as a head researcher. I guess what brings me here is an inquiry of how this game measures up to either the freeware version of NHL:EHM or it's predecessor freeware version. I am considering purchasing once I am done my law school exams, maybe sooner. However, I have never tried any OOTP game. Does the game do the hockey manager simulation brand justice?

Cheers.

Why don't you ever visit FHockey anymore, Ari?! ;-) Last time I saw you was in playing GLB I think...

The customization stuff looks awesome. For EHMers, the customization stuff (if it all makes the cut) will be a dream come true and something never approached before. There's a Commish Mode that gives you complete control over a game basically including editing players and teams in-game (no need for an external pre-game or save-game editor). Awesome stuff.

I can also tell you this: if you remember how quickly you could blow through season in the freeware EHM if you weren't micromanaging coaching during games, FHM seems to very much lean in that direction as opposed to the never-ending slog that it is to sim months out with say EHM 2007. Detail's still there to micromanage if you want, but you don't have to (IMHO one of the commercial EHM's greatest downfalls was not really giving you a choice).

Beyond that... *shrug*. It's early, man. We're waiting to see ourselves. I've said repeatedly my hope/expectations are the final FHM release version is more EHM 2005 than NHL:EHM 2004 and the potential is there for it to be. 2007 had a lot of polish I don't realistically think can be present in a first release (it's unfair to compare a 3rd commercial game to another dev's 1st release honestly), even if FHM surpasses 2007 in some other ways.

[tran]

Originally Posted by Primis

(it's unfair to compare a 3rd commercial game to another dev's 1st release honestly),

I disagree.
OOTP isn't some new kid on the block.
And it's 2013, not 2006. In 7 years, I expect the quality of game making to get better, not worse.

I think fans who are willing to expect less than a game made in 2006 are asking for a poor game.

OOTP should release the best sim hockey game ever made. There's no excuse for a goal less than that

[Stinson]

Originally Posted by tran

OOTP isn't some new kid on the block.

True. But there's little they'll be able to borrow from a baseball game for use in a hockey game. A lot of new engineering and coding will need to go into FHM. Besides, this isn't the same development team as OOTP Baseball. While Markus may have 14 years with OOTP, the FHM developers themselves do not.

Originally Posted by tran

And it's 2013, not 2006. In 7 years, I expect the quality of game making to get better, not worse.

True again. In fact, the quality of video games today is pretty staggering. However, I'm not sure what kind of an impact you think this should have on a new game? While plenty of advances have been made, there's still no magical video game dust that can be sprinkled on a computer to make an awesome game overnight. Designing and programming still takes time and significant effort. This is especially true for a two- or three-man indie team like we have for FHM.

Originally Posted by tran

I think fans who are willing to expect less than a game made in 2006 are asking for a poor game.

I think fans who are willing to expect less in this case are being realistic, and understand what I said above. The first release of FHM in September cannot, and simply will not, be as good as EHM 2007. My guess: somewhere closer to EHM 2004.

Originally Posted by tran

OOTP should release the best sim hockey game ever made. There's no excuse for a goal less than that

I agree, they totally should release the best hockey sim ever made. And I should totally be a millionaire. Maybe one day, but definitely not before a lot of hard work.

[archibalduk]

Originally Posted by Ari

Hi all,

Some of you may remember me from the glory days of EHM (pestering around on Fhockey and ITC). Others may remember me from my time spent working on NHL:EHM as a head researcher. I guess what brings me here is an inquiry of how this game measures up to either the freeware version of NHL:EHM or it's predecessor freeware version. I am considering purchasing once I am done my law school exams, maybe sooner. However, I have never tried any OOTP game. Does the game do the hockey manager simulation brand justice?

Cheers.

As things stand, FHM cannot be compared to any of the EHM series (in my opinion). The game is at beta stage at the moment and so there is a lot missing (and of course heaps of bugs/crashes).

Will it be comparable to EHM 2004 or EHM 2005 by September? I've no idea. There's only 5 months between now and the release date (3rd September). That doesn't seem like much time to add things and make the game feel less "basic"/skeletal. But I'm probably completely wrong because 1) I'm not a professional computer programmer and 2) only the devs know what will and won't realistically be added by September.

I think however this isn't surprising given the amount of work that has gone into the foundations of the game. Things like the modular and flexible approach to the league structures and rules (and schedules), a decent player generation system (far, far better than EHM's flawed regeneration system) and a brilliant player attribute and templating system. These foundations are what will make FHM a truly brilliant hockey sim one day. Maybe or maybe not with the first version or the post release game patches - but at any rate it will eventually.

So it's just a case of wait and see what happens between now and September. Maybe it'll be comparable to EHM 2004 or EHM 2005 or maybe it won't. If it's not, it will no doubt eventually be. This is only the first version after all.

But the above is just my view! You'll see many many different views on how good/bad the game is or will be. Some people were/are extremely excited by even the very first public release of the beta and posted things like this (link to the full thread):

Originally Posted by Garethw87

FHM is better already, is my opinion. Its finally time poor EHM went for that long sleep for me. He's been a great friend all these years and now he can finally rest and won't have to sim any more

Whereas others are bitterly disappointed right now (link to the full thread):

Originally Posted by mking55

Preamble:
This is not to "bash" the coming product.

[...]

There was obviously no way the game could have been made ready in the time frame they originally thought in their original estimate. I think it will be hard to be ready for their new projected release date but naturally I hope I'm wrong. The game, in my opinion, is not ready to play at any level. I was not expecting perfection, I was expecting a beta version and all that comes with it. I think what I got wasn't even an alpha version.

[...]

This is just my viewpoint and I felt the need to get this off my chest as I'm bothered by this "beta version". This does not diminish in any way my anticipation of the future and I look forward to the day when George Armstrong lifts the cup up over and over again. And yes, in 1964 George Armstrong was the captain of the Leafs (1958-1969) and not Dave Keon (1969-1975).

So you can see there is a wide spectrum of viewpoints based on the first couple of beta releases over the past month. I'm sat somewhere in between these two extremes. I'm reserving any real judgment until the final release. As I mentioned above, I do have some niggles of doubt (the lack of any depth to the tactics and apparent lack of any variance and effect of in-game rules, such as touch/auto/no icing, auto/tag-up/no offsides, fighting rules (i.e. some leagues use 2+2 and others use 5 mins), etc and the clunky GUI are 3 of my big concerns) - but for all I know these could well be resolved by September (and as I say, the next 5 months and the post-release patches are the key).

This is probably the best way of summing up the game I've seen so far:

Originally Posted by Stinson

I see it this way...

EHM is a good 31-year-old NHLer that retired six years ago at age 25.

FHM is a blue-chip 16-year-old junior.

EHM is a better player in almost every way, but it's retired and there's nothing left that it can possibly accomplish. FHM, on the other hand, has just been drafted #1 overall in the OHL/WHL/QMJHL, and has it's whole career ahead of it.

================================================== ============================================

Btw if you do choose to pre-order, please have a good read of this thread before doing so (it explains what to expect with the beta version - i.e. missing features, bugs and crashes): http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post3452290

Most notably:

We're trying to err on the side of caution and stability when deciding what's going into the first beta release, so we're avoiding big coding changes this week and temporarily disabling some things that are likely to cause serious issues. Still, there are aspects of the game that, no matter how shaky they are at the moment, can't be removed and will be on display, warts and all.

Bottom line: if you're planning on pre-ordering and expect to be playing a smooth, fully-featured, bug-free version of the game on Monday, you're not going to be happy with what you get. It's a beta, and betas crash and frustrate and confuse and break, and have ugly things like missing graphics and debugging tags in the text.

[Primis]

Originally Posted by tran

I disagree.
OOTP isn't some new kid on the block.
And it's 2013, not 2006. In 7 years, I expect the quality of game making to get better, not worse.

I think fans who are willing to expect less than a game made in 2006 are asking for a poor game.

OOTP is not a hockey sim though, and that's an important distinction. Baseball is absolutely nothing like hockey. Let's be honest here: there's very little in what they've done with OOTP over the years that's going to be of any value in making FHM probably.

It took Riz 3-4 years with SI to get to where EHM 2007 was with SI -- 7 or so years if you count the freeware as part of that process. I can't wrap my head around why you'd expect a game in development for maybe roughly 1 year -- using devs that have never made a hockey management sim before -- is going to surpass a team that spent 3-4 years of development, testing, and learning.

Just keep your expectations realistic, guys.

[SlyBelle]

Is this even worth comparing? On onehand you have a game that was created sometime ago for a few versions, but is no longer being supported by the developers. On the otherhand you have a new upcoming game that hasn't been officially released yet, but hopefully will have the longevity of OOTP Baseball.

So even if EHM was/is the better game, it doesn't really have a future except for what modders can do with it. Will the first version of FHM equal EHM which had time to mature after a few versions? Probably not. When FHM has had time to mature a few versions, perhaps that is a better time to start comparisons.

But regardless, my support will be behind FHM since it really is the only active option for Hockey management sims at this point in time.

[archibalduk]

Originally Posted by SlyBelle

Is this even worth comparing?

Yeah I see your point. I think it's personal preference. Like you say in the final sentence of your paragraph, it's the only real active option for hockey management sims - and, like you, I'll continue to support the game as much as I can.

I think the comparisons are just a way of helping some users gauge whether or not they'll enjoy the game. EHM is the benchmark for hockey management sims and so I think it's natural that people will compare the two games. Comparing the approaches of the two dev teams isn't really productive (e.g. things like "EHM did X in a particular way and therefore FHM must do it that way too") - there's more than one way to do things and EHM was far from perfect.

It may in fact be helpful for the devs when people do compare the games. Take for example my earlier post - I said that I prefer the tactical options and depth EHM has to the present FHM beta. If a lot of people are saying the same thing (like the many comments about the ease of use in relation to the UI) then it's useful feedback for the devs. They can then identify areas that users are frequently commenting upon and consider whether to work on them (e.g. by adding additional tactical options or modifying the UI/menu system, etc) - particularly as the OOTP guys really do read our posts and listen to our feedback.

I think so long as the comparison is to help users and/or give feedback to the devs then it's all good. If it's just for a flame war (like some threads here) then it's probably pointless!

[SlyBelle]

Originally Posted by archibalduk

Yeah I see your point. I think it's personal preference. Like you say in the final sentence of your paragraph, it's the only real active option for hockey management sims - and, like you, I'll continue to support the game as much as I can.

I think the comparisons are just a way of helping some users gauge whether or not they'll enjoy the game. EHM is the benchmark for hockey management sims and so I think it's natural that people will compare the two games. Comparing the approaches of the two dev teams isn't really productive (e.g. things like "EHM did X in a particular way and therefore FHM must do it that way too") - there's more than one way to do things and EHM was far from perfect.

It may in fact be helpful for the devs when people do compare the games. Take for example my earlier post - I said that I prefer the tactical options and depth EHM has to the present FHM beta. If a lot of people are saying the same thing (like the many comments about the ease of use in relation to the UI) then it's useful feedback for the devs. They can then identify areas that users are frequently commenting upon and consider whether to work on them (e.g. by adding additional tactical options or modifying the UI/menu system, etc) - particularly as the OOTP guys really do read our posts and listen to our feedback.

I think so long as the comparison is to help users and/or give feedback to the devs then it's all good. If it's just for a flame war (like some threads here) then it's probably pointless!

Yep, I do see that side of things too...I think talking about the games in general will unleash good thoughts on how it can be improved. I am guessing some of the game is influenced by EHM being the measuring stick, which isn't necessarily bad.

[yzerwing]

Originally Posted by Primis

The customization stuff looks awesome. For EHMers, the customization stuff (if it all makes the cut) will be a dream come true and something never approached before. There's a Commish Mode that gives you complete control over a game basically including editing players and teams in-game (no need for an external pre-game or save-game editor).

I think we still need a way to add player career histories though. Let's say you want to make your own created players with stats, how do you go about adding those, as it is now?

[RavenEHM]

Ari!
Damn, yet another face from the past.
Good to see ya around and kicking!

[drewst18]

Originally Posted by tran

I disagree.
OOTP isn't some new kid on the block.
And it's 2013, not 2006. In 7 years, I expect the quality of game making to get better, not worse.

I think fans who are willing to expect less than a game made in 2006 are asking for a poor game.

OOTP should release the best sim hockey game ever made. There's no excuse for a goal less than that

So by that logic, I should be able to in the span of one year build an xbox 360 game better than nhl 13. * I should add in yes, some of you may think that is easy since EA games are so bad, but hopefully my point gets across*

Time is more important than year in this case, the game has been in development from the ground since early 2012.

By the time EHM 07 was released it had EHM Freeware, NHL:EHM, EHM 05 already made, thats at least 7-8 years of development, assuming freeware only 1-2 years dev before release. Its actually unrealistic to expect more than EHM 07 in a first release, I don't even want to say unrealistic more like impossible. Don't care what skills you have, in 2 years you will not out produce a game that was in production for at least 7.

It will be the best hockey sim, in time...there is a long way to go but the potential *drool*

[Ari]

Originally Posted by Primis

Why don't you ever visit FHockey anymore, Ari?! ;-) Last time I saw you was in playing GLB I think...

The customization stuff looks awesome. For EHMers, the customization stuff (if it all makes the cut) will be a dream come true and something never approached before. There's a Commish Mode that gives you complete control over a game basically including editing players and teams in-game (no need for an external pre-game or save-game editor). Awesome stuff.

I can also tell you this: if you remember how quickly you could blow through season in the freeware EHM if you weren't micromanaging coaching during games, FHM seems to very much lean in that direction as opposed to the never-ending slog that it is to sim months out with say EHM 2007. Detail's still there to micromanage if you want, but you don't have to (IMHO one of the commercial EHM's greatest downfalls was not really giving you a choice).

Beyond that... *shrug*. It's early, man. We're waiting to see ourselves. I've said repeatedly my hope/expectations are the final FHM release version is more EHM 2005 than NHL:EHM 2004 and the potential is there for it to be. 2007 had a lot of polish I don't realistically think can be present in a first release (it's unfair to compare a 3rd commercial game to another dev's 1st release honestly), even if FHM surpasses 2007 in some other ways.

Primis! A familiar face I actually remember, odd. It's been a few years now eh? Hope things are well with you. Yeah, I kind of dropped off from the EHM world. Real life hit hard! Well, that + law school. The football thing was never my jam, but I was persuaded by Tieio, so I went with it haha.

Funny story about the Fhockey community. Coincidentally, we were talking about fantasy simulators at my old work (Safeway head office). I mentioned EHM of course, and ironically me and another individual (Robb Dawe) realized that we were both in the same league that I used to run, ITC. Apparently, he moved to Calgary from Halifax and we both ended up working at the same place together.

Thank you for your review. I have purchased the game now and look forward to giving it a run. Hopefully, it turns out to have a longer life span and provide the same entertainment EHM did for me.

[Ari]

Originally Posted by RavenEHM

Ari!
Damn, yet another face from the past.
Good to see ya around and kicking!

WHOA! Another familiar face. How's it going buddy? Been ages. Definitely at least 3 years since the ITC days.