New Feeder League Option

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I think the above helps illustrate a problem I've had with OOTP's handling of amateur players for awhile now. Each league in OOTP has its own supply of players and its own draft. This is unrealistic. In real life there is only ONE supply of players from which ALL leagues draw. What prevents MLB from drafting Japanese players, or Japanese teams from drafting American players, are the rules in each league which govern how players are subject to its draft.

There should be only one global draft pool into which all feeder leagues feed. It's then the individual league rules which determine which of the players in that pool are subject to being drafted by which leagues.

Hear, hear.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I think the above helps illustrate a problem I've had with OOTP's handling of amateur players for awhile now. Each league in OOTP has its own supply of players and its own draft. This is unrealistic. In real life there is only ONE supply of players from which ALL leagues draw. What prevents MLB from drafting Japanese players, or Japanese teams from drafting American players, are the rules in each league which govern how players are subject to its draft.

There should be only one global draft pool into which all feeder leagues feed. It's then the individual league rules which determine which of the players in that pool are subject to being drafted by which leagues.

Absolutely...this is the direction I'd like to see OOTP move in. This would also ensure well running International Leagues. It would become a little bit more like FM in this respect. (which is a very good thing)

[olivertheorem]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

There should be only one global draft pool into which all feeder leagues feed. It's then the individual league rules which determine which of the players in that pool are subject to being drafted by which leagues.

That is what I am going to try to emulate with my massive setup (that may bog down my computer a lot ). I am going to end up having the NCAA universe and a high-school league/assocation of comparable size feed MLB. The indy leagues will be no-draft leagues, with the PCMs set so low as to make sure that the created players don't last long at all before retiring (and all non-MLB retirees will be deleted). That way, all the non-drafted players can sign in age-capped indy leagues.

I just have to figure out how many indy leagues/teams I need to soak them up. Probably going to run the feeder team formula in reverse later tonight.

[Manny42]

Originally Posted by olivertheorem

That is what I am going to try to emulate with my massive setup (that may bog down my computer a lot ). I am going to end up having the NCAA universe and a high-school league/assocation of comparable size feed MLB. The indy leagues will be no-draft leagues, with the PCMs set so low as to make sure that the created players don't last long at all before retiring (and all non-MLB retirees will be deleted). That way, all the non-drafted players can sign in age-capped indy leagues.

I just have to figure out how many indy leagues/teams I need to soak them up. Probably going to run the feeder team formula in reverse later tonight.

Please let us know how it goes, Im interested in this

[olivertheorem]

Someone please check my work. I'm not sure I'm thinking this through correctly.

With the normal feeder team calculations, a standard MLB setup with 35 rounds needs about 175 feeder teams. This works out to roughly 0.73 feeder teams per team being supplied (calculating the latter as 30*7 for the minors plus 30 more for the majors, which isn't technically correct but close enough). This means that 700 feeder teams (the NCAA mod plus an equivalent HS feeder) is enough to supply 960 teams. This means that, if the indy leagues averaged 12 apiece, you'd need 60 indy leagues to soak up all the players.

If that's right and I try it, my computer may explode.

[polydamas]

Is there any way to avoid having rookie league players getting cut and end up back in college?

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by olivertheorem

Someone please check my work. I'm not sure I'm thinking this through correctly.

With the normal feeder team calculations, a standard MLB setup with 35 rounds needs about 175 feeder teams. This works out to roughly 0.73 feeder teams per team being supplied (calculating the latter as 30*7 for the minors plus 30 more for the majors, which isn't technically correct but close enough). This means that 700 feeder teams (the NCAA mod plus an equivalent HS feeder) is enough to supply 960 teams. This means that, if the indy leagues averaged 12 apiece, you'd need 60 indy leagues to soak up all the players.

If that's right and I try it, my computer may explode.

That looks about right at least with NCAA mod and high school, not sure what the math in on the HS enter college if they don't get drafted as that should take away some of the players. Not sure how much of a dent that would be as that would only affect the HS players, the NCAA mod alone is close to double the number of teams needed just for the MLB.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by olivertheorem

Someone please check my work. I'm not sure I'm thinking this through correctly.

With the normal feeder team calculations, a standard MLB setup with 35 rounds needs about 175 feeder teams. This works out to roughly 0.73 feeder teams per team being supplied (calculating the latter as 30*7 for the minors plus 30 more for the majors, which isn't technically correct but close enough). This means that 700 feeder teams (the NCAA mod plus an equivalent HS feeder) is enough to supply 960 teams. This means that, if the indy leagues averaged 12 apiece, you'd need 60 indy leagues to soak up all the players.

If that's right and I try it, my computer may explode.

The "problem" is the distrubution. If you are happy with all all stars compared to a league with normal feeders then fine. Be warned the distribution of talent will mean you have an overload of all stars. If only 5% are potential HOF players doubling feeders greatly increases the number of HOF player talent compared to "standard" settings maybe to 10% of the normal number of players who make the MLB. I can not say for sure doubling the draft pool doubles potential HOF players but I can say the talent will inflate. Sure the indys take the crap but will the extra crap a similar number of greats will be created.

If you have no problem with this fine. If not you are forewarned.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

There should be only one global draft pool into which all feeder leagues feed. It's then the individual league rules which determine which of the players in that pool are subject to being drafted by which leagues.

Yes. It has long been a bit of a frustration how every OOTP league seems to be in its own universe with no knowledge of, or impact from, any other leagues.

[olivertheorem]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

The "problem" is the distrubution. If you are happy with all all stars compared to a league with normal feeders then fine. Be warned the distribution of talent will mean you have an overload of all stars. If only 5% are potential HOF players doubling feeders greatly increases the number of HOF player talent compared to "standard" settings maybe to 10% of players who make the MLB. I can not say for sure doubling the draft pool doubles potential HOF players but I can say the talent will inflate. Sure the indys take the crap but will the extra crap a similar number of greats will be created.

If you have no problem with this fine. If not you are forewarned.

Yeah, there's that too. My gamble would be that the increase would be roughly equal for both hitting and pitching/defense, so that league totals stay roughly the same, even if the ratings see a general increase.

[mpejkrm]

I use fifteen high school feeder leagues (ten teams each) scattered throughout US and Canada, equaling 150 teams (3,750 players. Not all are draft eligible). I have broken down the NCAA mod to include 120 or so major colleges, not small ones that no one knows about. In total, just around 6,750 players per draft. Now, understand that only high school seniors, and college juniors and seniors can be drafted, and it comes out to around 2,000 players eligible for a 40 round draft, which selects 1,200 players, not including supplemental picks. Most undrafted high school players go to college. If anyone has a better idea on how to do this without so many FA's, please let me know. The AI will have 100+ players on their rookie league teams thanks to those FA's with no potential.

[dave1927p]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I think the above helps illustrate a problem I've had with OOTP's handling of amateur players for awhile now. Each league in OOTP has its own supply of players and its own draft. This is unrealistic. In real life there is only ONE supply of players from which ALL leagues draw. What prevents MLB from drafting Japanese players, or Japanese teams from drafting American players, are the rules in each league which govern how players are subject to its draft.

There should be only one global draft pool into which all feeder leagues feed. It's then the individual league rules which determine which of the players in that pool are subject to being drafted by which leagues.

i hope the folks at OOTP take note of this statement. He is dead on. This is my biggest problem with ootp. A poor decision that should be corrected. Add in the ability to change modifiers for nationality and it would work great.

[Biggio509]

The US and Japan are the only leagues with a draft, IIRC. The problem is not draft or separate pools. There is one pool. Once a player is not drafted he is a free agent that can be signed anywhere, unless leagues have foreign player restrictions. Once he is cut he is a free agent for any league to sign. That was the huge problem with having Japan in my past leagues. Way too many good cut or undrafted Japanese free agents enter into the MLB.

The problem is that all leagues create players. Therefore your indies create excess players and if your PCMs are not right guys that could be high minor or major league players. The indies and leagues without drafts like Korea and Taiwan do not suck the excess players like they should they expand the MLB pool rather than picking up the scraps.

You can't turn off player creation for a league. I think game design wants to make sure you don't crash because there are too few players on rosters. So the game over creates and errs on the side of caution. I am not sure if the non-draft leagues AI is good enough to keep enough players when you don't have a draft. In '11 or '12 I had huge problems with this. That is indies having a large pool but not signing anyone. I think it may have been because the scrubs were asking more than the indies could pay. A cut AAA player with no offers wanted MLB salary despite the fact no teams were calling.

I would like the option to turn off player creation for certain leagues so you can run indies who actually pick up the scraps rather than are supplied with guys every year. The problem is the AI was never written with that intention. It seems the original intent was really more a one league universe. It excels at that. Going beyond that with things like indies is using the game in a way it is not designed. That is not to say in the future Markus might not come up with a way to incorporate indies better. Just right now it is kind of tough because it is like a SUV off roading. Most were designed on a car chassis and we not built to do that despite the name. They give you and two families a comfortable safe ride on the suburban streets though.

[Honorable_Pawn]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

The "problem" is the distrubution. If you are happy with all all stars compared to a league with normal feeders then fine. Be warned the distribution of talent will mean you have an overload of all stars. If only 5% are potential HOF players doubling feeders greatly increases the number of HOF player talent compared to "standard" settings maybe to 10% of the normal number of players who make the MLB. I can not say for sure doubling the draft pool doubles potential HOF players but I can say the talent will inflate. Sure the indys take the crap but will the extra crap a similar number of greats will be created.

If you have no problem with this fine. If not you are forewarned.

Actually, it has the opposite effect. Increasing the overall talent moves the distribution of the curve to the right. It decreases the total distance (variance) from the "1st stanard devation player" (67% fat part of the curve) to the 3rd or 4th standard deviation player. This reduction in variance of ability will cause the distribution of statistics (League Toals Modifiers) to be distributed more-evenly.

I see this assumption incorrectly made often as it is definitely counter-intuitive. But it is a fact.

Do you use Bobble's facial hair Mod?

Did you adjust the frequencies so that you wouldn't get some of them too often? The game will distribute the variation of facial hair styles based upon the frequencies that you set. Similarly, the game distriubutes the statistics that are set in the league totals modifiers based upon the "frequency" of player abilities. Therefore, increasing talent will reduce the liklihood of superstar players.

I have just about completed a full-scale analysis of talent ratings and distribution. I should have the results here by Wednesday or Thursday evening. I have not evaluated the statisitics yet but I am fairly certain based upon other studies that I have completed in the past.

Anyways...

Increasing talent will not incerase hall of famers. On the contrary, it will reduce them (my hypothesis) or changing talent levels will have no impact if the game is designed with a zero-sum game. We will all know soon, if incerasing talent is league-wide (even distribution) or if talent changes mostly impact the tails. It is also possible that OOTP has a mechanism that bleeds talent in order to have an equilibrium.

All of this will be revealed soon. This week for sure.

[The Wolf]

HP, that entire post makes good, logical sense. I look forward to the discussion.

[Honorable_Pawn]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

HP, that entire post makes good, logical sense. I look forward to the discussion.

I have about 30 years of data on the control league that will run through 50 tonight.

I will run the test league tomorow night for 50.

Wednesday I will slice it, dice it, and graph it with full trend bars, devaitions clearly marked, z scores, et al.

I'm have a hypothesis I just want to see if I am wrong or if I am right. We'll all know very very soon.


On a side note,

This is why I hit almost every single thread tonight. Running sims.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

The US and Japan are the only leagues with a draft, IIRC. The problem is not draft or separate pools. There is one pool.

No, there isn't, at least, not in any meaningful sense. You can't have a situation with competing leagues such as happened between the AFL and NFL and the same player being selected in two separate, competing drafts.

Originally Posted by Biggio509

The problem is that all leagues create players.

A.k.a. separate draft pools that only one league has direct access to for drafting purposes.

[ashantewarrier]

Great discussion guys. I too would love to have more control over new created players for independent leagues. I would like to see the lesser leagues pick up the "scraps" that the major leagues do not draft or sign.

[clamel]

Originally Posted by olivertheorem

Someone please check my work. I'm not sure I'm thinking this through correctly.

With the normal feeder team calculations, a standard MLB setup with 35 rounds needs about 175 feeder teams. This works out to roughly 0.73 feeder teams per team being supplied (calculating the latter as 30*7 for the minors plus 30 more for the majors, which isn't technically correct but close enough). This means that 700 feeder teams (the NCAA mod plus an equivalent HS feeder) is enough to supply 960 teams. This means that, if the indy leagues averaged 12 apiece, you'd need 60 indy leagues to soak up all the players.

If that's right and I try it, my computer may explode.

My biggest Q is how you setup Indy Leagues financials ???
Could you put it on this board. You have to have these teams to sign players and sometimes players with long MLB careers. Many end their careers in the Indy Leagues.
I have so far found it hard to make these Indy Leagues workout when they just doesn´t like or can sign players.
It´s a shame OOTP can´t handle Indy Leagues better.

Then with a huge feeder league systems, NCAA and HS, the Indies shouldn´t have new players popping up, but concentrating on non-drafted, not signed players that are available to MLB.

[andymac]

Here would be the next question for me. Could overloading the talent in your league then be curbed with development modifiers? I have long wanted draftees to show a little more promise than the classes generally do in OOTP, but with a lot fewer of the prospects living up to their "hype".