Fundamental flaw in basic gameplay. (or "I *cannot* be alone in wanting to play this way.)

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Who needs an AI to run the minors when we can do it ourselves so much better and have a lot of fun doing it? The tools are there. All of the problems the OP listed can be readily overcome. You just have to know the tools and use them.

Plus this really gets you to know you future major leaguers well.

What is "a lot of fun" to one person is "unfathomably boring tedium" to others. The need to do this stuff myself is what has inevitably caused me to shelve OOTP over and over. The only reason I posted this publicly was to make sure that, given that I basically skipped OOTP12, there weren't key settings that had changed or I had overlooked that would allow the AI to do a better job at this. Otherwise I would have just taken it straight to Markus. Based on the responses so far, it sounds like that's where the issue belongs. (I'll be tooling around with the "force start" setting in a bit to be sure of that. It's the only thing mentioned here that I haven't tried at some point.)

[megamanmatt]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

What is "a lot of fun" to one person is "unfathomably boring tedium" to others. The need to do this stuff myself is what has inevitably caused me to shelve OOTP over and over. The only reason I posted this publicly was to make sure that, given that I basically skipped OOTP12, there weren't key settings that had changed or I had overlooked that would allow the AI to do a better job at this. Otherwise I would have just taken it straight to Markus. Based on the responses so far, it sounds like that's where the issue belongs. (I'll be tooling around with the "force start" setting in a bit to be sure of that. It's the only thing mentioned here that I haven't tried at some point.)

I say go for it because as henry said even if it isn't a way a lot of players play it means that AI opponents are still affected by it. It can't hurt at any rate.

[Cras]

Its how I tend to prefer to play this game. I am the GM, never think about managing the club on the field with the in-game engine (I rarely even watch the games, I just don't care, I do not want this game to be the baseball equivalent to Football Manager), I handle any and all player decissions for the major league club, and I choose who to promote/demote between the major league club and the AAA affiliate. I would like to leave the AA and below levels in the hands of a deputy. Its just too much to deal with when trying to sim seasons and the clip I prefer.

With that being said, I do not think anyone is out of line when asking that the game AI realize the purpose of the minor leagues, and that is to develop the future talent of the game. Playing old mediocre players over the up and coming prospect is nonsense. ANd the issue here isn't just wanting the AI to run my time properly, but also to run the other however many clubs you got in the league.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by blueturf

I finally found the thread that I remembered where Markus discussed Ghost Players. Based on this thread (from 2008) it appears they are coded differently than most of us thought how they behaved. Turning on full minors may cure some/most of the problems you are experiencing.

Hmmm...so supposedly it works exactly how I suggested that it should...

Originally Posted by Markus, in that thread

It will adjust this if a) ghost players are disabled (otherwise it will arrange by what the AI thinks is the best level for the player) and b) proper FA are available to fill the positions.

Double-checking this now. I went through all levels and released a bunch of players signed by the AI when I had them doing signings for me (REALLY don't want that), that left me with (end regular season)

29 Active
19 AAA
16 AA
12 A
16 SS-A
21 R

Then I turned on ghost players and let the AI manage the minor league rosters. After retirements, I got this...

25 AAA
25 AAA
25 A
10 SS-A
0 Rookie

13 of the 25 guys in Single-A have the down-arrow, and on the Minor League Report (why on earth don't the two guides match????) says that 7 guys don't belong in Single A.

But again, per Markus:

...otherwise {i.e. when ghost players are turned on} it will arrange by what the AI thinks is the best level for the player...

In the absence of a contravening statement from Markus since he made that comment about ghost players, it sounds like AI management of rosters when ghost players are enabled is just flat-out broken, not working how the developer says it should work, and needs to be fixed.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by megamanmatt

That's not what OP wants to do though so this doesn't matter. Whether you think it's better to play that way or not OP is asking for something very specific and from the sound of it that is pretty much the opposite. I'm not trying to start a fight with you Wolf I'm just saying you have to consider what OP wants above all else.

That wasn't about what the OP wants, I was just agreeing with John Howard.

Where has this idea suddenly come from that everyone must only respond to the OP? That's a bandwagon I won't be on.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

What is "a lot of fun" to one person is "unfathomably boring tedium" to others. The need to do this stuff myself is what has inevitably caused me to shelve OOTP over and over. The only reason I posted this publicly was to make sure that, given that I basically skipped OOTP12, there weren't key settings that had changed or I had overlooked that would allow the AI to do a better job at this. Otherwise I would have just taken it straight to Markus. Based on the responses so far, it sounds like that's where the issue belongs. (I'll be tooling around with the "force start" setting in a bit to be sure of that. It's the only thing mentioned here that I haven't tried at some point.)

If you don't like dealing with minor leagues, why have them? Why not just use reserve rosters and be done with it and not deal with minors at all?

(There, Matt, I responded directly to the OP. Be happy.)

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

If you don't like dealing with minor leagues, why have them? Why not just use reserve rosters and be done with it and not deal with minors at all?

(There, Matt, I responded directly to the OP. Be happy.)

Asked and answered in the thread.

Originally Posted by SkyDog

..because I *do* like to look back and see their history of how they progressed through the minors.


Beyond that, it's not unreasonable to ask that an existing feature would actually work, now is it? If the feature just did a decent job, there would be no need for workarounds.

It's not that I don't want them. I just don't want to manage them.

[snepp]

That's what I really dislike about the reserve roster. I love the ease of management, but hate having no history.

It would be fantastic if the reserve roster could emulate the idea of having partial minors with ghost players. The AI could determine which level the player would have been in if minors were used, and simulate the statistics for it.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Hmmm...so supposedly it works exactly how I suggested that it should...Double-checking this now. I went through all levels and released a bunch of players signed by the AI when I had them doing signings for me (REALLY don't want that), that left me with (end regular season)

29 Active
19 AAA
16 AA
12 A
16 SS-A
21 R

Then I turned on ghost players and let the AI manage the minor league rosters. After retirements, I got this...

25 AAA
25 AAA
25 A
10 SS-A
0 Rookie

13 of the 25 guys in Single-A have the down-arrow, and on the Minor League Report (why on earth don't the two guides match????) says that 7 guys don't belong in Single A.

But again, per Markus:



In the absence of a contravening statement from Markus since he made that comment about ghost players, it sounds like AI management of rosters when ghost players are enabled is just flat-out broken, not working how the developer says it should work, and needs to be fixed.

...and this gets even sillier after the ammy draft. Three weeks after the ammy draft, I have 25 AAA, 25 AA, 25 Single-A, 25 SS-A, and 1 guy in Rookie Ball. And the great majority of the Single-A and SS-A guys are giving the "overmatched" message.

[Cras]

"Broken" springs to mind, but granted I have never used ghost players myself. I never saw the point, coming over from OOTP 6.5 into v2006 where we now have the minor leagues as true full fledged leagues.

[blueturf]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Hmmm...so supposedly it works exactly how I suggested that it should...Double-checking this now. I went through all levels and released a bunch of players signed by the AI when I had them doing signings for me (REALLY don't want that), that left me with (end regular season)

29 Active
19 AAA
16 AA
12 A
16 SS-A
21 R

Then I turned on ghost players and let the AI manage the minor league rosters. After retirements, I got this...

25 AAA
25 AAA
25 A
10 SS-A
0 Rookie

13 of the 25 guys in Single-A have the down-arrow, and on the Minor League Report (why on earth don't the two guides match????) says that 7 guys don't belong in Single A.

But again, per Markus:



In the absence of a contravening statement from Markus since he made that comment about ghost players, it sounds like AI management of rosters when ghost players are enabled is just flat-out broken, not working how the developer says it should work, and needs to be fixed.

I guess I read that comment from Markus a little differently. Did some more searching and came across a thread from this year's release that, to me, indicates player promotion behaves differently when ghost players are on or off.

In this thread, he seems to allude much of what you are trying to accomplish can be done by turning off ghost players and ensuring the free agent pool is large enough to fill all teams at each minor league level.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

It's not that I don't want them. I just don't want to manage them.

Then it boils down to that you can have the awesome minors that you want only if you are willing to do the work, barring a total rewrite and upgrade of the minor league side of the game - which seems to be what you are calling for but which is unlikely to happen any time soon, if ever - and you're not willing to do the work they require. And then you refuse to consider the use of reserve rosters, which is pretty much the only reasonable compromise solution.

I'm not going to post any further, because I suspect I would be found in violation of the rules if I did so.

[SunDevil]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Then it boils down to that you can have the awesome minors that you want only if you are willing to do the work, barring a total rewrite and upgrade of the minor league side of the game - which seems to be what you are calling for but which is unlikely to happen any time soon, if ever - and you're not willing to do the work they require. And then you refuse to consider the use of reserve rosters, which is pretty much the only reasonable compromise solution.

I'm not going to post any further, because I suspect I would be found in violation of the rules if I did so.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

There was a 37-year-old in AAA last year.

Meet Andy Tracy, the oldest minor leaguer

right, but AAA does not have the same age limitations as the lower leagues...if I remember correctly.

[OutS|der]

With Ghost players it will arrange by what the AI thinks is the best level for the player

Maybe that part is working right but the recommendations from the coach's on the player development screen is what's wrong, maybe those coach's have the wrong idea about if a guy needs to move up or down and that is why they have the arrows.

If it's the minor league coaches suggestions that lead to the arrows then it would make sense that they might be a bit off as maybe they overvalue someone or don't have the same skill to evaluate them.

[packersfan]

I've thought this a problem, too, but I went through and checked the scouting reports of EVERY player in my organization and noticed that most of the guys were career minor leaguers at best. Some of those Big Time Prospects I had drafted had after a year of minor league player fizzled out and were rightfully in the low rungs of the minors. Now I try to let the AI just manage the minors with only a few tweaks if I see a guy that has the potential, is tearing it up, but the AI keeps demoting for some reason. I also make about 10-20 cuts every year after the draft to clear space for the new guys to actually get a little action instead of some no potential guy sitting there...I try to keep 30 to 35 in the lowest rookie ball team so that there are spare parts to fill the higher levels as injuries ravage the teams. It is amazingly hard to find those CAN'T MISS prospects or even those serviceable guys!

[Icy]

While I enjoy myself managing my minors promotions/demotions and even lineups so the players can learn new positions, I understand and fully agree with Skydog that it must be fixed.

My main reason is not his, but that if the AI is not managing the minors properly for my team, it means that is not doing it either for the AI managed teams, putting me on a big advantage against them.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by wspahn21

Also, for Bluenoser, not sure why you don't see the difference in what Skydog is asking but it is pretty obvious that the issues are separate. The other thread is basically asking for an almost role-playing aspect to be adding to the game in the form of a GM and Skydog is asking for an AI fix.

Not sure why you don't see the similarities. It's pretty obvious to me they come under the same roof.

First off, the OP has two problems here.

1. He starts by saying he wants to be GM, period. - If that isn't saying "Give me a GM Role" then I don't know what it is saying.

2. He's upset that he actually has to do the GM's job and manage his minors. He wants the AI to do it and to do it better than it is now, because he doesn't want to do it. Fair enough, everybody plays the game differently.

So, a GM Role gets added to the game. The GM Role allows you to say things like - Ok, I have AAA, AA, A, and rookie (or whatever levels) and "this" is how I want to manage them. The GM role is then created and the options for the GM are added so he can do the things the OP wants, like not having to manage his minors. So part of the GM role is defining the things he can designate to the AI. One of those things would be the ability to designate not only the things you want the AI to handle, but the ability to be explicit in how you want those things handled. Like giving the prospect regular playing time over the 28 yr old who's just filling a spot. Like having the AI "know" what level a player should be at. Etc, etc, etc.

There's your similarity.

Try to look at the big picture, outside the box. A GM Role can certainly cover all these things and more. The possibilities are endless.

I'm simply saying add the GM role, then define the role to include the things the op is asking for. Mainly, better minors management.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Not sure why you don't see the similarities. It's pretty obvious to me they come under the same roof.

First off, the OP has two problems here.

1. He starts by saying he wants to be GM, period. - If that isn't saying "Give me a GM Role" then I don't know what it is saying.

2. He's upset that he actually has to do the GM's job and manage his minors. He wants the AI to do it and to do it better than it is now, because he doesn't want to do it. Fair enough, everybody plays the game differently.

So, a GM Role gets added to the game. The GM Role allows you to say things like - Ok, I have AAA, AA, A, and rookie (or whatever levels) and "this" is how I want to manage them. The GM role is then created and the options for the GM are added so he can do the things the OP wants, like not having to manage his minors. So part of the GM role is defining the things he can designate to the AI. One of those things would be the ability to designate not only the things you want the AI to handle, but the ability to be explicit in how you want those things handled. Like giving the prospect regular playing time over the 28 yr old who's just filling a spot. Like having the AI "know" what level a player should be at. Etc, etc, etc.

There's your similarity.

Try to look at the big picture, outside the box. A GM Role can certainly cover all these things and more. The possibilities are endless.

I'm simply saying add the GM role, then define the role to include the things the op is asking for. Mainly, better minors management.

And my suggestion is much simpler, and why I specifically want it differentiated from something that would be considered a "new feature" and therefore possibly tabled for later. Just fix the AI's management of the minors, and I couldn't possibly care less if I'm called "GM," "Manager," "Supreme Dictator," "Overbearing Asshat," or "One True Dark Jedi" by the game.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by OutS|der

Maybe that part is working right but the recommendations from the coach's on the player development screen is what's wrong, maybe those coach's have the wrong idea about if a guy needs to move up or down and that is why they have the arrows.

That's a fair point. However, the fact that the AI moved every single draftee that it could up to Single-A makes me strongly suspect that part isn't working right. That said, even if it is working right, the fact that *so* many players are being suggested to be moved down a level and there are tons of open spots--even if somehow that's just a reporting error--gives me absolutely zero confidence that the minors are being handled remotely correctly. And Icy and others make a good point: if the game gives output that gives me zero confidence that it is handling my minors correctly, then there's no logical reason to believe that the minors of the AI-run teams are being handled correctly. And, as cuerv has mentioned, it can also be a problem in MP.