Fundamental flaw in basic gameplay. (or "I *cannot* be alone in wanting to play this way.)

[Cooleyvol]

Originally Posted by MooK881

Is it broken or will you not try the suggestions mentioned by others in this thread...OOTP has many options that you may not even think have a link there function to help your problem...such as:

1.) not using ghost players
2.) locking players in positions so the AI cannot touch them
3.) changing the AI evaluation of talent

It is an extremely complex game and you need to customize to make it work the way you want....you cannot assume the a game with this many options will work exactly the way you want it.

My minors work fine! I spent a lot of time setting up the leagues the way I want them and everything works perfectly.

If you put no effort in...you will get nothing back....

Additionally, it is one thing to be frustrated and make a suggestion...but do not attack people and keep it civil....there is no constructive reason to be angry...just like there is no constructive reason to have that quote in your messages about markus...kind of cowardly shot especially since it is an "unnamed person"

if you cannot keep it civil don't post on the boards....

I think SkyDog is well aware of the complexity of the game. He's been playing it for a decade or more.

[rjl518]

Originally Posted by JohnHoward

SkyDog I have a lot of sympathy for your view, and I used to feel the same way, but now I have gotten so deeply into organizational managment that I do manage all the minor league rosters, set all the lineups and pitching rotations, and monitor progress on a game-by-game basis. I love it and only deviate from that when I am playing historical and using reserve rosters instead of minors. I think organizational immersion is even more rewarding than team immersion. It used to feel exhausting but no longer. Having said that, I really do understand what you are looking for and I agree that the AI is not there yet. But I'm telling you, if you try doing it ALL, runnign the entire organization, it is really fun and rewarding.

im the same way...i take care of my promotions and demotions...i only let the AI take care of lineups and rotations...everything else is mine and i play out every game.

[oman19]

Originally Posted by RchW

I'm another in the minority it seems that has no issues or better said no issues that bother me enough. I just wish the game would not freeze on me.

Heck I hate to say it but I think the AI does a BETTER job than I ever would handeling the minors when playing with full minors.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Spare me the lecture. I am quite aware of the information that developers need in order to address issues, and I am further aware that this needs to be addressed differently from that which is discussed in the thread you referenced. The other thread is talking about a new feature. I am talking about fixing a situation that's dang near broken before bothering to implement a new feature on top of a near-broken system. And so you don't have to fret about it, you can be assured that I made sure that Markus would be aware of the information posted here.

Your exact words from your first post

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I want to be the GM. Period.

If that's different than having a GM specific role, well colour me confused. A lot of what you're saying is also being said in that thread.

You say fix something that's damn near broken - really? Why is not everyone thinks it's broken then?

Why is it that the GM role being discussed includes some of these things?

How is it you're so sure that if a GM role was implemented it couldn't include these things you're discussing?


Instead of differentiating the two, which is quite unnecessary, why not look at the two and see how they could work as one. A GM role that ensures you don't have to mess with the minors if you don't want to. Fine, include. With the similarities there's no reason these can't come under the same umbrella. But whatever floats your boat, go for it. I simply pointed it out to begin with because of the similarities I saw.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by cooleyvol

i think skydog is well aware of the complexity of the game. He's been playing it for a decade or more.

wat u meen??? I has no idea how dis ootp game work!!1

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by MooK881

Is it broken or will you not try the suggestions mentioned by others in this thread...OOTP has many options that you may not even think have a link there function to help your problem...such as:

1.) not using ghost players

Tried that already. See first post. Either the AI signs a bunch of guys I don't want/need (some of whom end up blocking my draftees,) or the game forces ME to sign guys. In either case, ugh.

2.) locking players in positions so the AI cannot touch them

Question on that: does that mean they don't get called up, though? That gets into the realm of having to micro-manage the minors--precisely what I don't want to do.

3.) changing the AI evaluation of talent

I've done that in plenty of different ways. There are probably a dozen or so threads from me about this from past versions.

It is an extremely complex game and you need to customize to make it work the way you want....you cannot assume the a game with this many options will work exactly the way you want it.

I refuse to believe that I should have to customize that game to make an advertised feature simply work the way it should.

My minors work fine! I spent a lot of time setting up the leagues the way I want them and everything works perfectly.

If you put no effort in...you will get nothing back....

I'm guessing I've put in more than my share of effort into OOTP.

Additionally, it is one thing to be frustrated and make a suggestion...but do not attack people and keep it civil....there is no constructive reason to be angry...just like there is no constructive reason to have that quote in your messages about markus...kind of cowardly shot especially since it is an "unnamed person"

if you cannot keep it civil don't post on the boards....

That quote has been there for years, and the two of us have had plenty of civil interaction through betas, previews, and the like. He's a big boy. He doesn't need you to fight his battles.

[JohnHoward]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Hmmm...Nope, this view hasn't changed in the 45 minutes since I made the original post. If I sit down to play OOTP for an hour, I want to complete a season or two in that time.

Look, I read your post. I understood it. I just made an alternate suggestion. I thought I was being sympathetic and contributing to a conversation. There is no reason to get snippy and condescending.

[wspahn21]

I am not sure why everyone keeps telling Skydog to lock a player in at a position, it doesn't do what he needs.

From what I see if you make the AI play him at a position it doesn't mean he will play everyday at that position it just means when he does finally get in a game he can only play at the position. So the guy can still be
"blocked" by some scrub and not get the playing time to develop.

Also, for Bluenoser, not sure why you don't see the difference in what Skydog is asking but it is pretty obvious that the issues are separate. The other thread is basically asking for an almost role-playing aspect to be adding to the game in the form of a GM and Skydog is asking for an AI fix.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by JohnHoward

There is no reason to get snippy and condescending.

Those who are familiar with me can tell you that "snippy and condescending" is pretty much who I am on these forums. You'd be surprised at how much effort I have put into self-editing in this thread.

[MooK881]

I am not fighting battles for markus....I just hate when people come on the boards and get so angry over a game...an amazing game that had just seen it's greatest release in years...and then you are condescending to snyone who does not share your viewpoint

I wanted customizable playoffs for years....made contructive criticisms every version since season ticket baseball...it is still not perfect but I understand that the majority of people had more pressing issues and those were addressed first over the years...now the playoffs got some love this year and the game is a work in progress that will keep becoming better!

I guess I see such a great Ootp community but every year I see this angry minority that ruins constrcive civil discussions from taking place

to me I don't care if you have played this game for one minute or 10 years every person deserves respect on the boards....
It is common kindness....

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by MooK881

I am not fighting battles for markus....I just hate when people come on the boards and get so angry over a game....

Believe me, I'm not remotely angry.

[JohnHoward]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Those who are familiar with me can tell you that "snippy and condescending" is pretty much who I am on these forums. You'd be surprised at how much effort I have put into self-editing in this thread.

No, no, I think actually I wouldn't be surprised.

[Cooleyvol]

Originally Posted by MooK881

I am not fighting battles for markus....I just hate when people come on the boards and get so angry over a game...an amazing game that had just seen it's greatest release in years...and then you are condescending to snyone who does not share your viewpoint

I wanted customizable playoffs for years....made contructive criticisms every version since season ticket baseball...it is still not perfect but I understand that the majority of people had more pressing issues and those were addressed first over the years...now the playoffs got some love this year and the game is a work in progress that will keep becoming better!

I guess I see such a great Ootp community but every year I see this angry minority that ruins constrcive civil discussions from taking place

to me I don't care if you have played this game for one minute or 10 years every person deserves respect on the boards....
It is common kindness....

You obviously are not aware of the work SkyDog has put in on making OOTP the game you play today. Therefore, your lecturing of him on OOTP and its workings is a waste of your time. Either help him with his problem or let someone who knows a bit more about it than you help him.

Is it possible he has a setting wrong? Possibly. But rest assured, he's not come here without at least going through all of that and thinking he has exhausted what he could do to fix it. He's not one of those who comes here and asks how to play the game as soon as he opens it for the first time. He opened it for the first time many versions ago.

[darkcloud4579]

Originally Posted by MooK881

I am not fighting battles for markus....I just hate when people come on the boards and get so angry over a game...an amazing game that had just seen it's greatest release in years...and then you are condescending to snyone who does not share your viewpoint

I wanted customizable playoffs for years....made contructive criticisms every version since season ticket baseball...it is still not perfect but I understand that the majority of people had more pressing issues and those were addressed first over the years...now the playoffs got some love this year and the game is a work in progress that will keep becoming better!

I guess I see such a great Ootp community but every year I see this angry minority that ruins constrcive civil discussions from taking place

to me I don't care if you have played this game for one minute or 10 years every person deserves respect on the boards....
It is common kindness....

I think there's a huge difference between kindness and constructive criticism. Even if one doesn't agree with the place from where it's coming from, I suspect that it's fair criticism to bring up flaws in the game that could be addressed.

After all, people pay for this game. It's great and has come a long way..but it's by no means perfect and so, this is all constructive discussion aimed at addressing a flaw that many of us see.

[megamanmatt]

Originally Posted by darkcloud4579

I think there's a huge difference between kindness and constructive criticism. Even if one doesn't agree with the place from where it's coming from, I suspect that it's fair criticism to bring up flaws in the game that could be addressed.

This would be my sentiment as well. I didn't note any hostility in the post just frustration. That can be understandable when something you're attempting doesn't work.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by wspahn21

I am not sure why everyone keeps telling Skydog to lock a player in at a position, it doesn't do what he needs.

From what I see if you make the AI play him at a position it doesn't mean he will play everyday at that position it just means when he does finally get in a game he can only play at the position. So the guy can still be
"blocked" by some scrub and not get the playing time to develop.

I'll give this feature a try tonight, but if what you're saying is correct, then that would be a plain ol' bug, unless I'm misunderstanding what "force start" means. I assumed that meant you'd force him to start at all times unless he is fatigued. (That said, that's still micromanaging the minors. We shouldn't have to tell the Single-A manager to start the one or two 2-star guys on the roster over the rest of the riff-raff down there every single day that they're not fatigued.)

[MooK881]

ok i'll leave you guys to it! I did make suggestions, but i saw his reply later that he tried those suggestions.
Sorry the game isn't working as you expected

But when i see posts that say "fundamentally flawed" or "does not work as adverstised" is not constructive!! It works perfectly for many people!

Also, I was not diminshing his contribution to OOTP...I don't know any of the inner circle that works on the game...all I know is that markus is the lead programmer and OOTP is my favorite game

I guess I should know "my place" but that is exactly my point...if someone likes me makes a comment about this kind of frustration that boils over to DE-structive critisicm...then GOD FORBID!! I did not put the time in so i know nothing!!

I guess I can't be surprised by this behavior though... I am a cancer researcher and I see this kind of stuff all the time...even when the stakes are human lives....I guess it is human nature...maybe I am not human

[rjl518]

i have had no issue handling the minors either...i do it myself but sometimes i ask my AI top set up the minors real quick...then i enhance its decisions

[Brettford]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

SUGGESTION: The AI has the access to know precisely where players "should" be in the minors. If possible, when the AI is managing the minors and ghost players are on, give priority to the highest-potential guys, putting them "where they belong," regardless of need elsewhere. This should be about developing players, not filling out rosters from the top down.

I think the OP is basically right that the realism of the system could probably be improved with a few simple AI tweaks.

Example:
Player A: 30 year old 1/1 star in A
Player B: 20 year old .5/5 star in A

We can "probably" agree that the AI should almost never start player A (aside to give player B a day or two off). Caveat: I have no idea whether the AI does this or not.

However, if we expand on the notion that the AI "doesn't do a good job managing minors" we get into some nuance...

"More than one player available to start in position X? Use the player with the greatest potential." Make management of the minors entirely about guys with any semblance of potential, everyone else is filler (could be ghost players if you are using them).

Of course, this isn't completely fool proof either. Especially when you have multiple high potential guys at the same position.

Example:
Player A: 24 year old 3/4.5 star 2B in AAA.
Player B: 22 year old 2/5 star 2B in AAA.

Player B has the highest potential, but do you really want player B to get the starts? Possibly....but I bet there would be a healthy debate on the "right" choice.

On what grounds do you want the AI to promote/demote. It is easy to say that the current AI "doesn't work" (and it may in fact be broken), but it is also very difficult to say "okay it's working" because everyone has a different idea of what actually makes sense.

Even if we assume we have an AI smart enough to blend current stats and potential into some coherent index of "how valuable is this player", how does it deal with promotions/demotions when you have competing players at different levels.

Example:
Player A: 20 year old 1/4 star RF blowing away A ball.
Player B: 21 year old 1/5 star RF with very good numbers in AA.

Suppose the AI is smart enough to figure out that Player A should be promoted (because he is just too good for that level). What happens when both player A and B are in AA? Who starts? Should they split time? Should we promote the AA guy to make room? What if there is an equally promising player at AAA? Should we consider any of this in the decision to promote?

I guess the point of my rambling here is that if a problem like the OP discussed is going to be solved, the optimal solution requires customizable inputs from the user.

Something along the lines of a slider set that governs how the AI manages your minor leagues.

Depth Chart
Favor current ability v Favor potential

Playing time allocation (between two solid prospects)
100% v 50/50

Promotion/Demotion
Favor stats v Favor current ability

Consider competing talent in promotion/demotion consideration?
Yes v No

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Brettford

I think the OP is basically right that the realism of the system could probably be improved with a few simple AI tweaks.

Example:
Player A: 30 year old 1/1 star in A
Player B: 20 year old .5/5 star in A

We can "probably" agree that the AI should almost never start player A (aside to give player B a day or two off). Caveat: I have no idea whether the AI does this or not.

However, if we expand on the notion that the AI "doesn't do a good job managing minors" we get into some nuance...

"More than one player available to start in position X? Use the player with the greatest potential." Make management of the minors entirely about guys with any semblance of potential, everyone else is filler (could be ghost players if you are using them).

Of course, this isn't completely fool proof either. Especially when you have multiple high potential guys at the same position.

Example:
Player A: 24 year old 3/4.5 star 2B in AAA.
Player B: 22 year old 2/5 star 2B in AAA.

Player B has the highest potential, but do you really want player B to get the starts? Possibly....but I bet there would be a healthy debate on the "right" choice.

On what grounds do you want the AI to promote/demote. It is easy to say that the current AI "doesn't work" (and it may in fact be broken), but it is also very difficult to say "okay it's working" because everyone has a different idea of what actually makes sense.

Even if we assume we have an AI smart enough to blend current stats and potential into some coherent index of "how valuable is this player", how does it deal with promotions/demotions when you have competing players at different levels.

Example:
Player A: 20 year old 1/4 star RF blowing away A ball.
Player B: 21 year old 1/5 star RF with very good numbers in AA.

Suppose the AI is smart enough to figure out that Player A should be promoted (because he is just too good for that level). What happens when both player A and B are in AA? Who starts? Should they split time? Should we promote the AA guy to make room? What if there is an equally promising player at AAA? Should we consider any of this in the decision to promote?

I guess the point of my rambling here is that if a problem like the OP discussed is going to be solved, the optimal solution requires customizable inputs from the user.

Something along the lines of a slider set that governs how the AI manages your minor leagues.

Depth Chart
Favor current ability v Favor potential

Playing time allocation (between two solid prospects)
100% v 50/50

Promotion/Demotion
Favor stats v Favor current ability

Consider competing talent in promotion/demotion consideration?
Yes v No

Excellent thoughts. Just a minor quibble: I would argue that if the game worked well enough to allow me to remove myself from worrying about who is getting starts in the minors and micromanaging that sort of thing, then for the most part, the "two similar prospects at same level" issue wouldn't creep up that often, because I'd be drafting to fill holes, trading away prospects when I have two, etc.