Sim 20 years then erase history?

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by Kobeck

What I do, and as QD says do what works for you, when I start a league is to delete the initial players TOTALLY and seed enough teams lowest minor league team fully to get enough players to fill the major league roster. I Release those turkeys into the inagural draft pool. Of course my mindset is always of a fictional startup league and it makes sense too me that the players would be marginal.

Depends on your story for the new league. Say if the back story is MLB lost its anti-trust exemption and exploded then plenty of experienced players would be available for a new league. If you are starting the equivalent of the USFL, an indie league that wants to compete with the MLB then that makes more sense.

In 1871, the pro guys were usually the best former amateur players that were recruited to the new teams. So for me unless you are an upstart indie in an universe with a major league, it is a hard sell that players initially would be marginal. Even then you think about leagues like the AA and AL who did quickly become major leagues signing NL caliber talent.

Honestly, I think the league evolution rules would be most interesting for a league like the USFL was in football, a competing maybe even offseason league that gets ambitions to be a major league. Teams would change more often and minors would expand over time. Over time the sabres and player creation mods would change reflecting more quality coming into the league. It would be very hard to reach major league stats because the MLB would still have the draft and draft all the best players.

[Toado]

I finally converted! I decided to quit my game - I'm pretty sure it was cursed - and start over with the "sim ahead XX years before you start playing" approach.

I must say, I'm a big fan. No more of the 'roided up 21-year-olds hitting .375 with 60 HRs and 170 RBIs! Thanks for all your suggestions!

[Bluenoser]

Been following this thread for some time now.

First off, I want to say I'm not questioning/doubting this theory, or what people are saying.

I do want to say, I've never simmed any history and did a reset (erase history) with my fictional leagues. I've run them "out of the box" so to speak, not adjusting PCM's, or other modifiers and I've never had a problem with young guys setting unreachable or odd records.

Just set up my league the way I want it and start playing. I've got one fictional league where I'm close to 200 years and not one record is out of whack.

Anyway, since following this discussion I've paid more attention, but again, still not having the problems with fictional players mentioned here.

[brunchpoems]

I'm just starting as an OOTP player and I wanted to build some history and, if necessary, level the playing field. Right now I'm simming 20 years and will wipe/re-sim if it looks like there are a lot of abnormal records or players.

I do have a question though. It seems as if the scouting at the end of the calendar year slows down the sim by quite a bit. Is this a necessary part of the game simulation, and, if not, is there a way to disable it?

edit: Any other general tips for speeding up sims?

[dickysty]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Been following this thread for some time now.

First off, I want to say I'm not questioning/doubting this theory, or what people are saying.

I do want to say, I've never simmed any history and did a reset (erase history) with my fictional leagues. I've run them "out of the box" so to speak, not adjusting PCM's, or other modifiers and I've never had a problem with young guys setting unreachable or odd records.

Just set up my league the way I want it and start playing. I've got one fictional league where I'm close to 200 years and not one record is out of whack.

Anyway, since following this discussion I've paid more attention, but again, still not having the problems with fictional players mentioned here.

I do think there are some 21 to 23 yr old heavily rated initial league generated players that you won't see in the ammy drafts that follow.

If you take a look at some of your career records I think you'll see some of those initial guys lead a few of the categories. Not to say they're out of wack but they do seem to have a head start compiling stats.

For curiosity sakes I created a new fictional league and there are some pretty highly rated younger players that you just won't find in the ammy drafts, like I was saying earlier.

I guess it's whats important to the simmer. That's why there's chocolate and vanilla.

[Toado]

Historically, I've always started playing at the beginning with my custom league dating back to OOTP 8, and I'll agree that sometimes it works fine record-wise to go this route. But about half the time, something will happen that seems so ridiculous that it kind of ruins the whole league for me. Whether it's rookies from both leagues winning MVP or a guy hitting .415, it just sort of spoils the "realism" for me.

The last several years, I've gone through and manually deleted the top several players (and all the abnormally good ones 20 years old and younger) to lessen the likelihood of bogus stats, but after trying (and really liking) the sim-ahead method, I think I'll stick with it. As others have suggested, though... there are pros and cons for each.

[brunchpoems]

I'm about 5 years into my sim now, with my manager jobless and in commissioner mode, but I just realized the birthdate of my manager is much too early. I can't find where to edit this..?

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by dickysty

I do think there are some 21 to 23 yr old heavily rated initial league generated players that you won't see in the ammy drafts that follow.

If you take a look at some of your career records I think you'll see some of those initial guys lead a few of the categories. Not to say they're out of wack but they do seem to have a head start compiling stats.

For curiosity sakes I created a new fictional league and there are some pretty highly rated younger players that you just won't find in the ammy drafts, like I was saying earlier.

I guess it's whats important to the simmer. That's why there's chocolate and vanilla.

I don't know, maybe I wasn't clear enough in my first post.

When I said not one record is out of whack, I meant not 1, not 2, not 3, not any. I have zero problems as are described throughout this thread.

The fact that initial guys lead a few catagories is irrelevant. Everytime a league is started, real or OOTP or any other game, there's going to be records set in the first season. It happened in real baseball. It can't help but happen since there are no records when a league starts up.

What I'm saying is, every record in my leagues are reachable for future stars. None of them are ridiculously high or unattainable.

I started the league in 2001, it's now 2138. Here's a small sample of career records:

HR's season - 54 set in 2012
SB's season - 70 set in 2020
Avg season - .385 set in 2003 (certainly not unrealistic for someone to better this)

ERA season - 0.82 set in 2064
Wins season - 27 set in 2121
Saves season - 57 set in 2039

Of those 6 only one was set in the early years and as stated, it's definitely not an out of reach record for future years.

Again, I am not doubting those who are saying this happens, just saying I've never had the problem.

[Questdog]

Career Stats are more the issue than single season numbers.

And whether you think it is okay or not is irrelevant; the FACT is the players you get in the initial pool are NOT created equally with the players that come from the Ammy draft.

This is not a point worthy of argument; the only question is whether you care or not.

Some of you probably don't care if your sheets are 100% cotton or not, but that doesn't change the fact of what's best for sleeping......

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Questdog

Career Stats are more the issue than single season numbers.

And whether you think it is okay or not is irrelevant; the FACT is the players you get in the initial pool are NOT created equally with the players that come from the Ammy draft.

This is not a point worthy of argument; the only question is whether you care or not.

Some of you probably don't care if your sheets are 100% cotton or not, but that doesn't change the fact of what's best for sleeping......

1. Career Stats are fine too.

2. Have no idea what you're talking about, not once did I mention it's okay or not okay.

3. There's a good distribution of players in the initial pool, I don't see these out of whack young guys you're mentioning. As for the initial pool not being equal, good, it shouldn't be. It's a new league, these aren't necessarily supposed to be rookies.

4. I'm not arguing your point. I stated it twice already but I'll state it again since you must have missed it.

I am not questioning/doubting what people are saying here, just saying I'm not seeing it.

5. Don't compare apples to oranges. What bed sheets "you" might think are best for sleeping vs what bed sheets someone else thinks are best for sleeping is irrelevant. Neither of you is wrong. And bed sheets has nothing to do with the topic.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

5. Don't compare apples to oranges. What bed sheets "you" might think are best for sleeping vs what bed sheets someone else thinks are best for sleeping is irrelevant. Neither of you is wrong. And bed sheets has nothing to do with the topic.

Bed sheets have to do with everything (now).....

I offered that as an example of an argument that isn't worth arguing since the plain fact of the matter is obvious. (And you offering the opinion that there is room for differing opinions does not make it so).

Here's an explanation that maybe you won't argue with (but I doubt it):

The job of our baseball sim is to create digital representations of ballplayers that can be recognized as such. When you sim, the game has a mold that it uses to make players for the annual draft who will grow into these said representations of ballplayers. But when you create a new league, it can't use that same mold to make players that are already fully formed, so it uses a different one. This one makes players that resemble the ones from the other mold in many ways, but they are different in many ways as well. The fact that you don't notice the inconsistencies is what is truly irrelevant. To me, it is important that all players be made from the same mold and since I can't figure out a way to use the Initial Pool mold for the life of the league, I choose to use the amateur draft mold as the exclusive source of my digital representations of simulated ball playing entities.

If you are not concerned with the differences in the molds, then that is fine. Enjoy. But let those of us who ARE interested have a discussion about it without having to defend ourselves......

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Questdog

Bed sheets have to do with everything (now).....

I offered that as an example of an argument that isn't worth arguing since the plain fact of the matter is obvious. (And you offering the opinion that there is room for differing opinions does not make it so).

Here's an explanation that maybe you won't argue with (but I doubt it):

The job of our baseball sim is to create digital representations of ballplayers that can be recognized as such. When you sim, the game has a mold that it uses to make players for the annual draft who will grow into these said representations of ballplayers. But when you create a new league, it can't use that same mold to make players that are already fully formed, so it uses a different one. This one makes players that resemble the ones from the other mold in many ways, but they are different in many ways as well. The fact that you don't notice the inconsistencies is what is truly irrelevant. To me, it is important that all players be made from the same mold and since I can't figure out a way to use the Initial Pool mold for the life of the league, I choose to use the amateur draft mold as the exclusive source of my digital representations of simulated ball playing entities.

If you are not concerned with the differences in the molds, then that is fine. Enjoy. But let those of us who ARE interested have a discussion about it without having to defend ourselves......

And that says it all right there - you believe your opinion is the only one, and there are no differing opinions. There are always differing opinions and there will always be differening opions, whether you choose to accept it or not.

And I state yet again, because you still obviously haven't read it even though I've said it three times now - I am NOT arguing with yours or anyone elses points. I clearly stated that and I also stated that I don't doubt/question the points made in this thread.

I am interested in the discussion, as I said originally. I at no point argued your points, so why are you coming up with this "people having to defend themselves" when, wait for it, yes I'm saying it yet again, I am NOT arguing your points or that this phenom exists. (Don't know how many times I'm going to have to say it before you accept it), I was merely pointing out that I wasn't seeing it. I never said it doesn't exist, what part of that don't you understand.

Now, that I've made it abundantly clear I'm not arguing your points, nor attacking them so you feel the need to "defend" them, I'd like to continue discussing the topic.

Please explain this "mold" you're talking about. Is this official from Markus or just what you beleive occurs? I'd seriously like to know more about it.

I'm also curious as to why you feel the initial pool should be made up the same as the ensuing draft pools? I'm being sincere with my questions, do you not believe that when a league starts there should be a large mix of players? When real baseball started, it didn't start with all rookies per se. You had a lot of players who already had a lot of experience. Sure, they were "rookies" to the league, but certainly not to the game. Please explain.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Please explain this "mold" you're talking about. Is this official from Markus or just what you beleive occurs? I'd seriously like to know more about it.

I'm also curious as to why you feel the initial pool should be made up the same as the ensuing draft pools? I'm being sincere with my questions, do you not believe that when a league starts there should be a large mix of players? When real baseball started, it didn't start with all rookies per se. You had a lot of players who already had a lot of experience. Sure, they were "rookies" to the league, but certainly not to the game. Please explain.

Point 1) As I have said (or at least tried to) this is NOT an opinion or a belief. It is a fact. (You say you don't want to argue the point, but refuse to acknowledge my position as anything more than an opinion, which, to me, is arguing (and the worst sort of arguing where the antagonist refuses to acknowledge the contest).

Point 2) You are missing the point. I do not want, nor should anyone desire, to have an initial pool of all 23 year old players of roughly the same ability. I want diversity and I want 30+ year old players from the get go. The point is that I want the players I get in year one of the league to be the same (as a group, not individually) as I get in year 50 and year 100 and on and on for infinity. I want the 19 year olds in my initial pool to be similar to 19 year olds that appear in year 50. This is not the case with the default arrangements, so I sim 30 years, delete the history and start there with a group of players who have all been created from the same mold. In my first year of a league, there is a wide diversity of players from very young to very old, from good to bad. You said we should not compare apples to oranges (which is silly, 'cause how else can you tell them apart?) but when you create a league under the default arrangements you are populating your league with apples and then drafting oranges every year from there on out. I just prefer to start with the oranges in the first place.

I just created a league to show you the stats:

Initial Pool (vsRHP Actual ratings (not scout assesments):

Avg. Power:
All 20 yr. old hitters: 30.7
Top 5 20 yr. old: 80.0

Same League 5 years later:

Avg. Power:
All 20 yr. old hitters: 19.7
Top 5 20 yr. old: 55.4

As you can clearly see, the initial pool of 20 year olds have MUCH higher power than the 20 year olds of five years later.

One other point to make:

It is NOT that the initial league creation does a poor job of making players. It just doesn't make them the same as the ammy draft does. Personally, I think the ammy draft ought to create more young players who can play in the majors than it does. I use feeder leagues and the discrepancy in talent is even greater in this case. Personally I think ALL 18 and 19 year old players who will eventually be of major league caliber OUGHT to be able to play in the big leagues immediately and hit higher than .100.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Questdog

Point 1) As I have said (or at least tried to) this is NOT an opinion or a belief. It is a fact. (You say you don't want to argue the point, but refuse to acknowledge my position as anything more than an opinion, which, to me, is arguing (and the worst sort of arguing where the antagonist refuses to acknowledge the contest).

I have acknowledged your points a hundred times over, yet you still refuse to acknowledge that. Fine, we can agree to disagree.

Now, on to the "facts". I simply asked if this "mold" thing is official from Markus or your opinion. NOTE - I "asked", I didn't STATE it was your opinion. Please answer the question, do you have this as official from Markus or is it your opinion that this phenom exists? It's either one or the other, so which is it?

Originally Posted by Questdog

Point 2) You are missing the point. I do not want, nor should anyone desire, to have an initial pool of all 23 year old players of roughly the same ability. I want diversity and I want 30+ year old players from the get go. The point is that I want the players I get in year one of the league to be the same (as a group, not individually) as I get in year 50 and year 100 and on and on for infinity. I want the 19 year olds in my initial pool to be similar to 19 year olds that appear in year 50. This is not the case with the default arrangements, so I sim 30 years, delete the history and start there with a group of players who have all been created from the same mold. In my first year of a league, there is a wide diversity of players from very young to very old, from good to bad. You said we should not compare apples to oranges (which is silly, 'cause how else can you tell them apart?) but when you create a league under the default arrangements you are populating your league with apples and then drafting oranges every year from there on out. I just prefer to start with the oranges in the first place.

I'm not missing the point, yet again I refer to my comment - I don't doubt you guys, I'm just seeing things differently. I don't know how else to explain to you that I AM NOT arguing your points. I'm simply stating that I am not seeing these things.

Originally Posted by Questdog

I just created a league to show you the stats:

Initial Pool (vsRHP Actual ratings (not scout assesments):

Avg. Power:
All 20 yr. old hitters: 30.7
Top 5 20 yr. old: 80.0

Same League 5 years later:

Avg. Power:
All 20 yr. old hitters: 19.7
Top 5 20 yr. old: 55.4

As you can clearly see, the initial pool of 20 year olds have MUCH higher power than the 20 year olds of five years later.

Yet again, I'm not arguing that you are getting/seeing this, just stating that I'm not. Leagues I've created have had a good distribution of players.

Originally Posted by Questdog

One other point to make:

It is NOT that the initial league creation does a poor job of making players. It just doesn't make them the same as the ammy draft does. Personally, I think the ammy draft ought to create more young players who can play in the majors than it does. I use feeder leagues and the discrepancy in talent is even greater in this case. Personally I think ALL 18 and 19 year old players who will eventually be of major league caliber OUGHT to be able to play in the big leagues immediately and hit higher than .100.

I understand and respect your point here, (finally you talk about the topic instead of my supposed arguing) but I think the initial pool of players should be far from the same as the Ammy draft players. The initial league start isn't an Ammy Draft, it's not supposed to be amateurs imo. It should be a mix of established players and young players, and that is what I'm seeing. Once the league actually gets to its first, and succeeding) amateur drafts, then you should be seeing young players. This can be controlled in league setup btw by using age limits.

Anyway, since you choose to continuously badger me about supposed arguing, I'll end my discussion with you. I'm interested in persuing the topic, not your accusations.

Thanks for your time.

[Garrett67]

I just started to sim my initial 20 years and then will continue with the next 60.

I should have done this at night, its gonna take a month of Sundays to finish


It has taken 4 hours to sim 8 years...

Might be time for plan B, or unchecking some stat boxes.

[Knuckster]

Heh. I have also followed this thread closely and I am trying to apply it to a historical-fictional league.

[Garrett67]

8 hours in, 13 seasons simmed so far.

I'm not sure if I can sim 80 (20 to erase and 60 for history). I might just lose my mind by the time this finishes.

[Garrett67]

Okay, there is no way I can sim 60 more years. I want to play !!

I'll go 20 (until 1970) because I guess it really doesn't matter what year it is. I can copy it and finish simming later .

This is where another PC would come in handy. One to sim, the other to play

[Knuckster]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Now, on to the "facts". I simply asked if this "mold" thing is official from Markus or your opinion. NOTE - I "asked", I didn't STATE it was your opinion. Please answer the question, do you have this as official from Markus or is it your opinion that this phenom exists? It's either one or the other, so which is it?

I appreciate your tenacity and non-combative tone in which you have tried to figure out if this alleged early-prospect simming issue is a fact or just people's observations and/or claims.

[fhomess]

Originally Posted by Garrett67

It has taken 4 hours to sim 8 years...

Might be time for plan B, or unchecking some stat boxes.

Given that you plan to erase this history, I don't see any point in having the league set up with anything but the lowest stats detail level. I would assume that you'd want development and aging modifiers set as you want them later, but everything else can be scaled back to the lowest detail needed. Anyone with more experience than me on this have a comment to this element?