OOTP vs The Competition!

[jakobscalpel]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Actually, I think OOTP is a better replay simulation than the classic replay games (DMB, Strat). These games have an outdated game engine, missing crucial things like DIPS or a sophisticated defensive engine. The only 'advantage' they have are real day-by-day lineups, but this changes with OOTP 12. The resulting league totals and individual stats of OOTP 11 already surpass all other games out there in terms of realism in my opinion.

Are there any sources or studies for your last sentence? I'm a long time DMB player who just recently ordered OOTP for the first time. There are two reasons I've waited to switch. One, the in-game play always felt better in DMB compared to earlier demos of OOTP (in my opinion of course). Two, I always thought, without any actual proof, that the results from historical replays in DMB were the most accurate out there. If OOTP is more accurate now then I'm very pleased but I'd like to see some sim studies comparing the various games, if they are available.

LouisSVillano, I'm a long time DMB player and I've also done some development work for the company and written some DMB 3rd party tools as well, so I can comment on that game. Cost is obviously the biggest downside for DMB, with a close second being the lack of any significant development being completed on the PC game. Third, the UI in DMB is really awful. I created some tools to bridge the DMB GM gap but they are quite poor compared to the GM tools that OOTP contains. Other folks have created fictional capabilities for DMB but again, they are poor and require some juggling to make them work instead of being out of the box. My impression is that OOTP is the best mix of everything right now and, if Marcus's comments about replay accuracy are correct, it is possible that OOTP is now the number one game in pretty much every category. Couple that with an active dev cycle and that is why I'm giving it a real shot to be my number one game this year.

[Gambo]

Originally Posted by jakobscalpel

Markus: The resulting league totals and individual stats of OOTP 11 already surpass all other games out there in terms of realism in my opinion.

Are there any sources or studies for your last
sentence?

He states it is opinion and does not need proof, sources or studies. Just his own experience.

No biggie, it's just that from experience we'll see comments like this quoted on other boards out of context. The same thing goes for people quoting DMB, Strat, APBA and Shaun Sullivan from Puresim. It goes both way and all parties are at fault.

[klkitchens]

Originally Posted by RchW

Not to totally dump on DM but I never got the "replay" deal ever. I was making up fictional leagues in various sports since I was 12 and I never wanted to replay history as it happened. When I saw the money people were asked to pay for a re-creation I thought of PT Barnum.

True dat!

As I said on another thread (and have been saying since Earl Weaver 1.5), fictional leagues are the ONLY way to go.

No matter what you do, the results are fictional, even with real players. And it takes very little brains to put in the star players you know from television or history. Challenge yourself with total unknowns.

It's a blast!

[jakobscalpel]

Originally Posted by Gambo

He states it is opinion and does not need proof, sources or studies. Just his own experience.

I know he said it was his opinion and his opinion doesn't need be justified, which is why I asked if any studies existed. It sounded like they may or may not. I wasn't trying to be accusatory, I'm just curious about new games I own and studies are often the fastest way to learn how the games work.

[Edit] And yes, it is unfortunate but true that misquotes are often cross-posted to other game forums. It certainly isn't my intention. I've never understood the animosity that is sometimes apparent between games.

[Syd Thrift]

IMO there's a divide here between realism and accuracy, and that's part of what Markus is touching on. Is it more statistically accurate for Roger Maris to average 61 homeruns every time you replay 1961, even if that means half the time he hits 70 and the other half 50? Yes, absolutely. Is it more *realistic* for a guy who never hit more than 40 homeruns in any other season of his career to hit 61 or more in one year the majority of the time? I would say absolutely not, and if you use 3 or 5 year recalcs or no recalcing at all after the player is created you get a situation wherein a 61-homer performance represents about a 90th or 95th percentile level of Maris' ability. Again, not necessarily as statistically accurate as DMB but WAY more realistic.

Really, any little thing that you introduce to the equation beyond just randomly rolling against batting stats is going to skew the results. In that respect I probably disagree with Markus that it's the most statistically accurate game out there - he probably has some algorithms he sticks in there to account for things like park effect and maybe even playing time in late-inning pressure situations (where hitters are more likely to see top closers and set-up men and pitchers are more likely to see pinch-hitters) but he doesn't TMK play-test these to see how well they actually stack up. On a league-wide level, OOTP does some leveling things which literally do make them reproduce numbers better than DMB or Strat or probably Puresim, but I don't know that that translates to individual stats (in fact, my experience is that it does not).

In the end, I totally agree with the people who prefer fictional.

[Chicagofan76]

Originally Posted by klkitchens

True dat!

As I said on another thread (and have been saying since Earl Weaver 1.5), fictional leagues are the ONLY way to go.

No matter what you do, the results are fictional, even with real players. And it takes very little brains to put in the star players you know from television or history. Challenge yourself with total unknowns.

It's a blast!

As a person who has created 5 Fictional leagues (4 QS's), I have to disagree, I love my historical league and my 4 single season replays, but to each their own, I play & love my 9 current leagues.

[Tim Tellean]

Funny how this thread has stayed in the OOTP 12 area, when the comparison thread of OOTP v PureSim was moved within hours.
Cooleyvol where is your indignation and reporting to a mod?

Just saying....

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by Tim Tellean

Funny how this thread has stayed in the OOTP 12 area, when the comparison thread of OOTP v PureSim was moved within hours.
Cooleyvol where is your indignation and reporting to a mod?

Just saying....

I think it helps that this thread actually has OOTP in the title whereas the thread that was moved was simply "PureSim 4"

My 2 cents

[Gambo]

I'd say it's because this thread is actually discussing features of the game in comparison to what is available in other games.

Not all threads comparing OOTP to other games have been deleted in the past.

It's a thin line and this thread has yet to cross it. (Fingers Crossed)

[Cooleyvol]

Originally Posted by Tim Tellean

Funny how this thread has stayed in the OOTP 12 area, when the comparison thread of OOTP v PureSim was moved within hours.
Cooleyvol where is your indignation and reporting to a mod?

Just saying....

Where did you arrive at the assumption that I 'reported' something? That's your first mistake...............just sayin'. Rest assured, should another thread be started in the wrong forum with the wrong purpose, I'll post again, but don't think for one minute that I reported anything. That would assume a working relationship between myself and the mods. That, for sure, is not the case.

This thread was started with OOTP in mind. The other one (and the one before that one that I posted in) were not.

Originally Posted by silvam14

I think it helps that this thread actually has OOTP in the title whereas the thread that was moved was simply "PureSim 4"

My 2 cents

^^gets it^^

Originally Posted by Gambo

I'd say it's because this thread is actually discussing features of the game in comparison to what is available in other games.

Not all threads comparing OOTP to other games have been deleted in the past.

It's a thin line and this thread has yet to cross it. (Fingers Crossed)

^^gets it^^

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Tim Tellean

Cooleyvol where is your indignation and reporting to a mod?

[The Wolf]

BTW, I agree with Cooleyvol.

[megamanmatt]

Originally Posted by Tim Tellean

Funny how this thread has stayed in the OOTP 12 area, when the comparison thread of OOTP v PureSim was moved within hours.
Cooleyvol where is your indignation and reporting to a mod?

Just saying....

Funny how people so wrongly assume freedom of speech is a concept that exists on internet forums. That's not an insult to the internet or message boards it's just not, and for good reason. If every jackass had the ability to say anything they want on a message board then we'd be inundated with even more jackassary than we are.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by megamanmatt

If every jackass had the ability to say anything they want on a message board then we'd be inundated with even more jackassary than we are.

Even more than we are now? That's hard to imagine.

[Chicagofan76]

Originally Posted by megamanmatt

. If every jackass had the ability to say anything they want on a message board then we'd be inundated with even more jackassary than we are.

Yeah unfortunately i am restricted by what I can say on here if i want to remain a member under this SN.

[Tim Tellean]

Lets add PureSim 4 into this discussion. I believe Shaun has made great strides in the stuff that matters, that is the actual mechanics.
Its going to be interesting to see how Shaun pushed PS as he starts his own company and focuses on mobile devices.

[Gambo]

I honestly don't know much about Puresim so I can't make comments about it.

There is alot of confustion between two different types of playing "real life" in baseball simulations.

Statistical Replays and Historical Replays are two different things. The arguments in threads like this are that this is often misunderstood.

Statistical replays have the main focus of correct statistics. The expectation is that the replay will have results that closely mimmick the reality of whatever occured.

Expectancy: Roger Maris will hit about 61 HRs in 1961. It better be close.
Real World Example: Participating in Civil War Reenactments. "The Union is on that hill with 3000 men and I'm dressed for the occasion."

Historical replays have the main focus of recreating the world. The expectation is that the environment mimmicks the real events. Performances are expected to reflect the abilities of the player in a world that reflects the environment they played in.

Expectancy: Roger Maris will hit a bunch of HRs in 1961. It was a fluke and I really don't expect it he'll probably have a good year but be closer to the rest of his career.
Real World Example: Playing a Total War Game. "Oh crap, the Carthaginians just invaded Spain. Luckily I have a unit of soldiers. Let's hope there's no elephants."

In regards to historical realism OOTP is an entirely different entity than the majority of sims and would be better classified as a historical rather than statistical sim. There are at least 3 types of historical simulation in baseball games.

1) "Card and Dice" - These systems use a generated card that creates results based on percentages for real stats. Dice rolls determine the action. The card and situation is the mechanic. (e.g. APBA, Strat)

Benefits : Realistic percentages per player with less variation. e.g. Maris will hit nearly 61 in 61. Best way to do "replays"
Negatives : Players limited by actual performance not actual ability. Little customization.

2) "Stat and Ratings" - These systems translate stats into ratings for players. The ratings determine the action. E.G. - OOTP

Benefits : Less limited by stats. Players perform to expected abilities and not necessarily statistics. Customizability (e.g. multi year recalculation). Best way to simulate "history".
Negatives : Less similarity to historical results.

3) "Ratings and Gameplay" - These systems use ratings alone. The base of the ratings may be historical in nature but statistic relevance in minimalized. The game engine has more to do with results than the players themselves.
E.G. - Older Baseball Moguls, "Arcade".

Benefits : Depends on the type of game. Ease of use, graphic representation, customizability.
Negatives : Lack of depth. Dissapointing for stat enthusiasts. Statistical Frustrations.

[Chicagofan76]

Perfection Gambo

[Gambo]

Thanks Chicago.

Since this is a discussion I'll put in some of my opinions.

OOTP is not the best game for Statistical Replays. I'll admit it yes.

(Side discussion begins here...)
When Markus makes his opinion about feeling it is the best I understand where he is coming from. I may be off base in saying this but Markus is a European and in my experience their thirst for historical simulations (not just sports) is based in the idea of creating the environment and the user becoming immersed in it. There is a great reason that Europeans have developed some the most immersive fantasy worlds. (Tolkien anybody?). Also, their military simulations are some of greatest ever for this reason. Markus I believe just does not feel exact replication of statistics per player is the most important thing if the world is not right. His goal is to make you feel like you are managing the Yankees in 1961 and not the 1961 Yankees.

For this reason above all I do not expect OOTP will anytime soon give baseball statistical purists the results they expect.

Having a degree in History and minoring in classical cultures I was taught to ignore the specifics of events and understand the world around them and why the events occured. OOTP gives me the ability to do this as an active participant in the world of Baseball like no other can.

(Back to my normal discussion)
I currently play semi-historical leagues in OOTP. I like to make my leagues as comprehensive as possible. Uniforms, Minors. The reason I created my custom databases is to make them more comprehensive to include more minor leaguers and others. I implement Minor Leaguers, Negro Leaguers and also make edits for my own use. (But I sure do expect the players, no matter who,to be as realistic as possible) For example what would have happened it Bo Jackson never got hurt? OOTP lets me use a database that deletes all those fateful years after the NFL playoff game and see what would have happened. The world is real around him but the game engine will take over and simulate the rest of his career. An amazing option in my opinion.

I've also done statistical replays with OOTP and other games. I've done replays in APBA and Strat. A couple of years ago I did a 1977 replay with the Yankees in APBA and then tried to do the same thing with OOTP. It was good but just didn't feel the same. It just didn't interest me as much as the other option available in OOTP (and at a fraction of the cost)

I've not played DM or Puresim so I don't know how they'd do for me. I played APBA Football for years but when everybody went to ActionPC and claimed it was better statistically I agreed but it didn't feel right to me. I play Second and Ten now, it's not as good statistically but gives me a more similar feel to APBA.

So in the end my opinion is that. OOTP has a better feel and is more immersive that other games. It may not play as quick as other "simulations" or have the exact statistical results as others but creates the historical world better than any other. If you want a "what if" or "can I do better" or "what would I do" simulation then OOTP is the game for you.

I would like to add one word of warning. Many simulations are known to tweak results to get more accurate results in the end. It was a big issue in the earlier days of sport simulation and still exists today but can be hidden better. Though not statistical APBA implements a fatigue model that forced usage to be correct and would penalize overused players. Many stat sims now do this for statistics. If a player over or under performs they will magically streak or slump as the year progresses outside of their performance. (Why did my player go 9-10 the last 3 games and it says he's now slumping and hasn't even played another game). I'm weary of games that promote tweaks to player performance, outliers or extraneous events. Fancy terms for noticing weird performances and having the program correcting/remove tham as this is either info that does not match what is expected or is a result of randomization. Many claim arcade games have automatic "catch up coding" that falsely creates competion, it's just as easy to do this his simulations.

Go to other message boards and ask the developers about how they have improved statistical realism. The proof is in the pudding.

At least I know that OOTP uses neutralized databases and yearly result comparisons to make adjustments each season for the whole league without changing player ratings on the fly to produce better real life statistics. Last years improvements in historical accuracy was done by tweaking the system of neutralized statistics, simulating seasons and base league modifiers for the beginning and completion of each year for the league to start with. It provides league totals to be more correct each year while the players individual ratings don't change.

[Gambo]

Jeesh. I just compared Markus to Tolkien...

I think I just graduated to Fanboy status.

Well if that's the case I'll say this...

As of right now... Best Statistical Simulation on the Market?

Not that i've played but I can't say what is.

Best Historical Simulation on the Market? Heck Yes

and nothing remotely comes close.